I'm hoping this doesn't start a fight, I'm just curious what the political orientation is of this community. I grew up in a liberal (in the American sense) family, and I identify now as a socialist, though a lot of the liberalism I grew up in has stuck with me, like interest in LGBTQ and women's rights, environmentalism, etc. Wondering where people here land?
I realise that I'm using nationalist in a context that you're probably unfamiliar with.
When I say Welsh nationalism I'm using this definition - "advocacy of or support for the political independence of a particular nation or people."
As opposed to the definition you're likely more familiar with -"identification with one's own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations."
Now for how I Square these two otherwise inconsistent political goals:
It is a complicated process and I don't doubt that the Welsh nationalist movement may present some hurdles in the long run to the dissolution of state hierarchy. But the way I see it is like this:
UK parliament controls the entire UK, there's the senedd in Wales and the Scottish parliament but ultimately they only have the power to make minor adjustments to laws (such as change the speed limit slightly).
As such, any revolution that occurs in Wales has to contend not just with the local bourgeois but also from the bourgeois of the United Kingdom as a whole.
Now two possible tactics exist in this situation:
Or
Of the two of those, I believe the latter outcome is more likely to succeed.
Sorry for the huge wall of text.
It's fine, I prefer detailed responses.
And I understand the difference between left wing and right wing nationalism, but it's kind of weird to be for the identity of Wales and against all governments, given national identities heavily rely on governments to exist.
I think a key place where we are disagreeing is in the nature of Welsh identity. I don't view it as a national identity but rather a cultural one. Even once all states have been dissolved, Welsh identity will likely persist through our language and traditions.
Well isnt Welsh a nationality as well?
Yes, but the cultural identity will outlive the national one when the state dissolves, it has millenniums of cultural inertia behind it after all. I don't forsee any future anti-capitalists getting in the way of, for example, Eisteddfod gatherings or couples exchanging love spoons.
I guess I should ask why do you think the state will dissolve?
If an anarchist revolution is successful, the dissolution of the state is inevitable.
If a socialist revolution is successful then the eventual dissolution of the state will likely occur in a framework such as Engels' "withering away of the state".
Since capitalism cannot sustain itself indefinitely, it is likely that one of these two revolutions will occur (or there will be a backslide into fascism).
Is there an anarchist model you cite as an example?
Pëtr Kropotkin wrote a lot about possible organisation of anarchist society after the revolution, at this point it's a meme to recommend reading "the bread book" The Conquest of Bread and I don't personally recommend starting with it and instead beginning with a pamphlet like Anarchism and Revolution.
The ZAD de Notres-Dame-des-Landes, is a good example of a long running commune that has managed to withstand assault from an external state. But the kinds of large scale anarchism that will do away with the state in its entirety has not yet been attempted.
I'm surprised you didn't cite Catalonia or Zapatistas or Anarchist Ukraine? Guess you don't like those?
I've got nothing against any of them, I just wanted to mention one that's a bit less well known.
Well what do you think of those examples, since they're large scale?
Revolutionary Catalonia provides a good example of an anarchist project where large scale industrial infrastructure was maintained and could help form the blueprint for decentralised industry. Much ink has been spilled pointing fingers about who was to blame for the sectarian infighting that ultimately led to its collapse, I think a more important question would be "how do we stop something like that happening next time?" A question that I have no clue how to answer.
Anarchist Ukraine - correct me if I'm wrong, but this is about the Mahknovists right? Despite being largely agrarian, they were able to rebuild destroyed infrastructure an astounding rate in the face of multiple invasions and an ongoing civil war. There are rumours of antisemitism within Mahknovshchina but a lot of them come from USSR aligned sources and are hotly debated by different anarchist groups, I don't know enough about Ukrainian history to know if the accusations are true.
The Zapatistas are not anarchists and have never claimed to be. While they do have some similarities to historical anarchist projects it would do them a disservice to lump them into an ideology with which they don't identify.
Fair enough on the Zapatistias, I just hear about them a lot from anarchists as a workable example of anarchosocialism.
And yeah I actually don't know a lot about anarchist Catalonia, just that it's basically the biggest example of anarchism on a society-wide level. Was actually goading you for more information lol.
Yes, them. Also don't know much about them. I know far more about the Menshevik territories in Georgia and Russia, which were democratic socialist and not anarchist, and even more forgotten about.
Give me a bit and I'll track down some sources on them. Check back in, like, an hour or so and I'll have a list edited on this comment.
Revolutionary Catalonia
Here's a first-hand account from someone who was a child at the time.
Murray Bookchin on the Spanish revolution.
Write up on the Mujeres Libres, a group of women anarchists.
George Orwell was a snitch who did a lot of work to undermine British anarchists, but he did witness the Spanish civil war first-hand here's a link to what he wrote about his experiences
The Spanish Communist party's take on the Spanish Civil war because this list was looking a little one sided (this one is a downloadable PDF not a webpage).
Gonna a take a while longer for more on Makhnovshchina. So I'll edit again when I've found sources.
Makhnovshchina
Only found a couple this time.
Here's a defence of the Makhnovists, chapter 5 discusses the anti-Semitism claims (though imho not very well).
And some Trotsky criticising them for balance (bit of a biased source since he oversaw the Bolsheviks' purging Makhnovists).
Thanks a lot :) I've been meaning to read up on anarchosocialism for quite awhile.
You're welcome.
I'm a little taken aback that this thread didn't rapidly degrade into the shit flinging that political discussion is doomed to become online.
how the hell were you able to deal with this shithead
Didn't check the rest of the thread and therefore didn't see 'em cisplaining at my queer comrades.
Seemed in good faith so I responded as such, which is how I try to interact with most folks online.
your effort was commendable, don't let this moron ruin it. I myself have saved your sources to read later, it was very enlightening. Thank you for your posting
🥰
Sorta is now, lol
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