In this case the communist attacked you and started shooting you first. I'd imagine most would defend themselves when attacked
It's an interesting idea though that anyone who communists attack are Nazis. Maybe the funniest conclusion from that is that Vietnamese were Nazis since China attacked Vietnam in 1979.
The Finnish state that fought the Soviet Union, the one which was allied with Nazi Germany, was only established after the wholesale massacre of communists and workers. Anticommunism is the modus operandi of fascism in all its forms. The axis powers in WWII were formalized in the "Anti-Comintern Pact" to which Finland was a signatory.
Using something happened in 1918 and especially 1941 to justify calling Finland Nazi during Winter War that happened in 1939-40 seems fairly creative.
Interesting thing about the Civil War and Winter War though. After the Civil War Finland was heavily divided nation for a long time. And while the wounds had started to heal some, it was the opposition to the Soviet attack that actually brought the left and right together. I'm not sure how true it is, but I've heard Stalin expected the Finnish workers to celebrate him coming over and "freeing them" and was quite surprised that they were having none of that.
That's again something that happened after Winter War. Official Finnish policy towards Jews was luckily much better during the war. Even resulted in funny things such as Nazis awarding a Finnish Jewish soldier the Iron Cross, which is just bizarre to think about.
It would feel a bit strange to say Finland was Nazi during Winter War because during Continuation War Finland was Axis aligned when the USSR attack in Winter War is the biggest reason Finland sought closer ties with Germany.
The Soviet Union feared that the noted anti-communists in control of Finland would allow it to be used as an operating base for the Nazis.
The USSR attempted diplomatic resolution to those fears with Finland.
They were denied.
The USSR invades Finland to secure safety from that fear.
They win.
The noted anti-communists in control of Finland then allow it to be used by the Nazis as a base for the Nazis, and support them in attacking the USSR.
You're saying the Continuation War happened solely because of the Winter War, and that the noted anti-communists were in no-way ideologically aligned with the Nazis before the USSR's attack?
The USSR wanted Finland to give it areas including the main Finnish defensive line. Knowing what happened with Czechoslovakia and "just a few areas" and knowing what happened to Baltics, it's easy to see what road that would've taken Finland down on.
You’re saying the Continuation War happened solely because of the Winter War
No, I'm saying Finland sought help from the Nazis because during Winter War Finland was left completely alone, the preferred alliance direction of Nordics or UK/France/US panning out to not have done much at all. And both sides, USSR and Finland knew it was just a temporarily truce and another war was coming. Obviously Finland didn't want to be alone, again.
the noted anti-communists were in no-way ideologically aligned with the Nazis before the USSR’s attack
Mostly the Finnish leadership were noted anglophiles.
For sure. But both sides saw another war coming and with how close Finland was to being fully occupied, the worry was that this time Soviet Union wouldn't stop until they had achieved that. Understandable worry in my opinion, even though fighting alongside Nazis is a black mark on Finnish history.
No I really meant that both sides knew that this wasn't over. Both considered it unfinished (heh) business.
The same USSR that recognized Finnish independence in 1918?
The very same (or well, it had changed a bunch but still). Though the Soviet attempt to conquer Finland during Winter War, that had just happened, might've been a bit more prominent in peoples' minds than 1918.
I don't think it was unavoidable, I hope it didn't come off like that. Generally there are three schools of thought about this. Historically the "drift wood" theory has been the most prominent one. It argued that Finland was drift food flowing in the rapids of world events. It argues that Finland just "drifted to Germany's side". It has been popular because Finland had to come to grips with what happened during WW2. And that theory was the copout, basically. "We didn't choose this, it just happened". It was basically the "official truth" for the longest time and even though professional historians abandoned the theory I think since the 70's, it has been the popular explanation among non-historians for the longest time, with it still being somewhat popular. Another theory (not very popular) was that Finland was the willing aggressor and had been seeking out Germany the whole time since independence and wanted to join Germany and jumped at the opportunity. This you can still see in more far-left circles and I think the idea is more popular abroad. It's been brought up here too. Then there's the theory that has since replaced driftwood theory, with a more nuanced and I think historically sound take. It argues that Finland wasn't a driftwood but more a "whitewater boat" I guess. The rapids of world events did influence Finland majorly, but there was also conscientious effort from Finnish side to seek closer ties with Germany. And that's the one I personally believe in. Finland didn't helplessly and unavoidably drift into an alliance with the Nazis, but rather it was influenced by what was happening around Finland, experience of being left alone during Winter War and how close to total defeat Finland was and fears about the unsettled business with Soviet Union. I think seeing all those factors, it's understandable from the POV of the leadership at the time (though not morally defensible) to see why Finland became Nazi Germany's ally.
Area cutting through the Finnish main defensive line and an important peninsula and harbor close to Helsinki vs. areas in the middle of nowhere in Karelia. It wasn't a one-sided suggestion, in fact by area I think the offer was bigger, but it's easy to see why it wasn't accepted when you consider what would be given and where.
idk. if you're shooting communists, you're probably a nazi.
In this case the communist attacked you and started shooting you first. I'd imagine most would defend themselves when attacked
It's an interesting idea though that anyone who communists attack are Nazis. Maybe the funniest conclusion from that is that Vietnamese were Nazis since China attacked Vietnam in 1979.
The Finnish state that fought the Soviet Union, the one which was allied with Nazi Germany, was only established after the wholesale massacre of communists and workers. Anticommunism is the modus operandi of fascism in all its forms. The axis powers in WWII were formalized in the "Anti-Comintern Pact" to which Finland was a signatory.
Using something happened in 1918 and especially 1941 to justify calling Finland Nazi during Winter War that happened in 1939-40 seems fairly creative.
Interesting thing about the Civil War and Winter War though. After the Civil War Finland was heavily divided nation for a long time. And while the wounds had started to heal some, it was the opposition to the Soviet attack that actually brought the left and right together. I'm not sure how true it is, but I've heard Stalin expected the Finnish workers to celebrate him coming over and "freeing them" and was quite surprised that they were having none of that.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/10/world/europe/finnish-volunteers-very-likely-participated-in-killing-of-jews-in-wwii.html
That's again something that happened after Winter War. Official Finnish policy towards Jews was luckily much better during the war. Even resulted in funny things such as Nazis awarding a Finnish Jewish soldier the Iron Cross, which is just bizarre to think about.
Wasn't Finland aligned with the Axis directly after the Winter War? Doesn't seem like a huge stretch.
It would feel a bit strange to say Finland was Nazi during Winter War because during Continuation War Finland was Axis aligned when the USSR attack in Winter War is the biggest reason Finland sought closer ties with Germany.
So:
The Soviet Union feared that the noted anti-communists in control of Finland would allow it to be used as an operating base for the Nazis.
The USSR attempted diplomatic resolution to those fears with Finland.
They were denied.
The USSR invades Finland to secure safety from that fear.
They win.
The noted anti-communists in control of Finland then allow it to be used by the Nazis as a base for the Nazis, and support them in attacking the USSR.
You're saying the Continuation War happened solely because of the Winter War, and that the noted anti-communists were in no-way ideologically aligned with the Nazis before the USSR's attack?
The USSR wanted Finland to give it areas including the main Finnish defensive line. Knowing what happened with Czechoslovakia and "just a few areas" and knowing what happened to Baltics, it's easy to see what road that would've taken Finland down on.
No, I'm saying Finland sought help from the Nazis because during Winter War Finland was left completely alone, the preferred alliance direction of Nordics or UK/France/US panning out to not have done much at all. And both sides, USSR and Finland knew it was just a temporarily truce and another war was coming. Obviously Finland didn't want to be alone, again.
Mostly the Finnish leadership were noted anglophiles.
They could've fucking taken the loss of their territory, instead of fighting alongside the fucking Nazis.
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For sure. But both sides saw another war coming and with how close Finland was to being fully occupied, the worry was that this time Soviet Union wouldn't stop until they had achieved that. Understandable worry in my opinion, even though fighting alongside Nazis is a black mark on Finnish history.
Not if they accepted the loss.
The same USSR that recognized Finnish independence in 1918?
No I really meant that both sides knew that this wasn't over. Both considered it unfinished (heh) business.
The very same (or well, it had changed a bunch but still). Though the Soviet attempt to conquer Finland during Winter War, that had just happened, might've been a bit more prominent in peoples' minds than 1918.
Alright, man. I'm getting frustrated here, but that's just because I'm not as knowledgeable on the topic as I should be.
It feels to me like you've presented joining with the Nazis as an unavoidable move for the Finns.
I feel like it's clear that it could've been avoided, but I'm just not knowledgeable enough to drag that argument down by the hamstring.
I've got some reading to do, thanks for the replies.
I don't think it was unavoidable, I hope it didn't come off like that. Generally there are three schools of thought about this. Historically the "drift wood" theory has been the most prominent one. It argued that Finland was drift food flowing in the rapids of world events. It argues that Finland just "drifted to Germany's side". It has been popular because Finland had to come to grips with what happened during WW2. And that theory was the copout, basically. "We didn't choose this, it just happened". It was basically the "official truth" for the longest time and even though professional historians abandoned the theory I think since the 70's, it has been the popular explanation among non-historians for the longest time, with it still being somewhat popular. Another theory (not very popular) was that Finland was the willing aggressor and had been seeking out Germany the whole time since independence and wanted to join Germany and jumped at the opportunity. This you can still see in more far-left circles and I think the idea is more popular abroad. It's been brought up here too. Then there's the theory that has since replaced driftwood theory, with a more nuanced and I think historically sound take. It argues that Finland wasn't a driftwood but more a "whitewater boat" I guess. The rapids of world events did influence Finland majorly, but there was also conscientious effort from Finnish side to seek closer ties with Germany. And that's the one I personally believe in. Finland didn't helplessly and unavoidably drift into an alliance with the Nazis, but rather it was influenced by what was happening around Finland, experience of being left alone during Winter War and how close to total defeat Finland was and fears about the unsettled business with Soviet Union. I think seeing all those factors, it's understandable from the POV of the leadership at the time (though not morally defensible) to see why Finland became Nazi Germany's ally.
Sorry for the long post.
And offered more area in Karelia in return, it wasn't some kind of a one-sided deal
Area cutting through the Finnish main defensive line and an important peninsula and harbor close to Helsinki vs. areas in the middle of nowhere in Karelia. It wasn't a one-sided suggestion, in fact by area I think the offer was bigger, but it's easy to see why it wasn't accepted when you consider what would be given and where.