Recently, many of our anti-Zionists posts have been downvoted to oblivion by liberals. As hexberians realized a while back, downvotes only help liberals since they are more numerous and they don’t need to engage in discourse. I am proposing to just get rid of downvotes and instead engage in discourse on content that we disagree on.
big fan of how hexbear does things. it protects trans people from silent stalkers that downvote all our posts. DO IT. LAUNCH THE ZIONISTS AND THE TRANSPHOBES INTO THE SUN
thanks for coming to my tedtalk
Removing the ability to downvote means we can no longer downvote transphobic content. Instead, it might have +10 upvotes since you disabled downvotes, and now you have to see it and be appalled by the lack of downvotes, and engage with it.
This is the goal of big tech in removing downvotes: to platform reactionary content, make it ambiguous whether or not its popular, then force engagement through ragebait. Not anything we want to replicate here.
This is a massive problem on twitter and youtube especially, platforming the worst content, making it seem popular (and often driving it to the top), and making you stress and think about how to respond, because you have no ability to quickly downvote it. Probably ruins untold numbers of people's psychological well-being.
Transphobic content should be removed and banned, not downvoted. And users from minority groups should have their concerns taken seriously, not banned.
So you think hexbear is platforming reactionary content? After all, the stated reason of removing downvotes was to explicitly stop harassment of vulnerable users. Do you consider that to be a railroad to reactionary thought?
The biggest problem with youtube is its algorithm and how little hateful content is removed, not whether or not you can downvote things.
We do remove and ban transphobic content. Downvotes helps us see that quicker too, in addition to reports that people can make, but often don't have the energy to bc of burnout.
Of course not, but since they removed downvotes is very possible for someone to make troll accounts, upvote transphobic content, and force people to see that it has a positive score. Not a fun experience, and it shows that upvote without elaboration can be as psychologically harmful and harassing as downvote without elaboration. The solution that lemmy has is that you can disable displaying all vote scores in your user settings.
Also, I'm not, and I hope no one else would, go over to hexbear and demand they make changes, and start fights with everyone. We have our own site rules, and one of them is to be respectful to other comrades here. If you can't disagree without being respectful, we won't hesitate to issue temp bans.
I sat here pondering on how to write this to you, but I think I'm talking to a brick wall. It should be noted that I have extensive history in dealing with trans spaces in social media and I think hexbear is the only place that has gotten it right, though there is still room for improvement (re: better mod tools and automation). I'm on the mod team for /c/traa, and I also run an irl LGBT org almost singlehandedly (I work with the trans community in our area and redirect them to resources). I recently helped a woman IRL that had her parents spiral into a reactionary frenzy due to social media and the result was predictable. Any reduction in the harassment campaign against us is of critical importance, and I am emphatically demanding that you consider what I have said here, as it is very likely that I simply just know more than you.
I also gotta tell you, in the kindest way possible, you need to shut the fuck up about civility when talking to someone from any minority group. It makes you look like a liberal and it is a bad look.
Lemmygrad doesn't have the history of trans users being targeted with mass downvotes like Hexbear did. We've had the occasional mass downvote brigade targeting specific comms, but they seldom last more than a few days maxed.
Another reason I've heard brought up is that it will make libs show their ass instead of hide anonymously. This encouragement to post is a good fit for Hexbear's post from the hip culture, but not necessarily Lemmygrad's.
wrong, i have definitely noticed that issue
I haven't? Like trans specific?
Yeah,or at least caught up in a wave of downvotes. If I knew this was going to be a thing that was going to be debated I would have taken notes like on hexbear tbh. Low-key wouldn't be surprised if hexbears idiots left for lemmygrad, a lot of these arguments are very familiar
I can agree with viewing downvotes and banning those who seem to be lurking to harass trans users.
That's a reactive style of handling harassment. It is better to hedge it off before it can happen
Federated users still downvote, you just can't see it
Doesn't matter it won't effect where it is in the queue
It does in federated instances
Sure but it is better for local site culture
I don't agree.
I don't agree
Would you take it kindly if I visited Hexbear to advocate for downvotes to be reinstated?
I don't care what you think, I care what's better for the trans community so they don't get harassed. You can get bent for all I care
Of all the people who are sure they are right about this issue for everyone in the fediverse, you are the surest.
Correct, loser
I’m just a data point of one, but I think you’re sabotaging your own arguments for emojidunkings over downvotes.
Except when a trans person says something encourages harassment towards trans people apparently 🙄
What youre saying just sounds like cover a bunch of transphobes said when we implemented our trans positive features. Glad we purged their asses, hopefully lemmygrad learns a similar lesson
i guess im covering for transphobes too lol
yeah, and you shouldnt be endorsing a reactive form of moderation. it is better to be proactive so no one is harmed by any harassment.
I was trying to politely lead to the conclusion that this isn't your instance to advocate for change in.
You're insinuating that I've advocated for harm to the trans community. I have not.
You haven't shown that removing downvotes is useful for the topic at hand, which is federated downvotes.
I don't want to repeat the culture of hexbear, but I'm very happy it's there for the people who do.
Pre-federation we had a pretty sweet culture featuring a very high signal/noise ratio where people were generally taken in pretty good faith and lightly corrected for mild things, and atomized by orbital ion canon for moderate to very bad things for the 10 minutes or so before the user is banned. We're still reeling after federation and our signal/noise ratio has honestly gone to shit and taken our vibes with it.
That said you can take Kristina's insight or leave it but she isn't wrong.
The culture of sport-arguing about outside cats until someone gets banned is not something I want to be part of.
What is she right about? This isn't hexbear for her to recommend changes on, and this scenario of federated downvoters is not the same as the Hexbear harassment scenario.
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I'm really surprised you havent learned that there was a history of harassment of people on lemmy and that there were consistent stalkers of trans people constantly downvoting trans posts. This isnt an issue in safe spaces. It really doesnt matter what happens in the fediverse. What you are saying, though, is that you are happy with trans people being harassed on lemmygrad if you are not proposing a different system that counteracts it.
I understand that there was an issue with this in Hexbear pre-federation. I'm glad the admins found a solution that works for the site.
The point of this post is that it does matter what happens in the fediverse. This post is about federated downvotes.
I have not said that, you're putting together a strawman to crybully.
You haven't shared how your situation in Hexbear (pre-federation, with internal users, and people being downvoted who do not want to spread posts in the fediverse) is relevant to this post (federated downvotes of a user who wants to share posts throughout the fediverse).
You also haven't shared why it's your business what Lemmygrad does.
Edit: it looks like you've been banned from Lemmygrad
ive been on lemmygrad longer than you 🙄 im also a communist, this bizarre tribalism is dumb, its in the interest of the trans community to make sure there are as many safe places for trans people as possible. and yes, the trans people are here to bully your asses, as is the natural order of things
you havent shared any better alternative. its better to have a half measure than a no measure.
Lemmygrad is a shit instance if they can't handle basic discussion about trans people being harassed and think the correct decision is to ban the trans people who have an issue.
Your problem isn't that you're having an issue with trans people harassed, it's that you're assuming that we have the exact same problem Hexbear had in that regard, and arguing that we should remove a major site feature on Lemmygrad because of it when it's never really been a problem here (largely because the admins are so on top of things), and then basically just accusing everyone here who disagrees with that idea of being transphobic and dunking on them for it when that's not even close to why people here disagree with the idea
Basically, it's not that we can't handle discussion about trans people being harassed, it's that you're immediately assuming bad faith of everyone here when it's rather uncalled for, and people here are pretty experienced at spotting bad faith arguments for reasons that should be obvious
I've been here long enough that I have absolutely observed it as a problem here, yes.
examples?
if knew that lemmygrad was full of debatelords i would have gotten examples. also weirdly, that comment wasnt federated to lemmygrad, did your account get banned over there
Weren't you the loser that demanded I be 'respectful' when I say we should do something about harassment? Have you ever considered that people get angry whenever they suggest, through lived experience, that something decreases harassment, and then you debatelord over it?
Even blahaj can get this shit right, what a fucking joke that you can't think to be better than a liberal
Do you feel like you're engaging with me in the way that you'd like to be engaged in?
I quoted the sidebar rules when you were being mean, they're not my words.
You also haven't clearly shown how the topic at hand is related to the Hexbear harassment issue, or that it's an effective fix in a federated space.
It feels like you're just taking out unrelated anger, to be honest.
The Hexbear harassment situation isn't what's happening here.
We're in the same thread, replying to each other. Except I'm not calling you names.
Edit: seems like you're ok with downvotes now. Why the change?
awh, are you sad? are you feeling harassed? its almost like they should be removed.
This is the whole point, isn't it?
The removal of downvotes makes you used to cruel, surface-level, replies.
Now you've baited me into a reply that took time and thought, and you can glibly ignore it to insult me.
This is why I don't want Lemmygrad to become like Hexbear - these interactions hurt my feelings and stress me out.
I get that you're doing the Hexbear thing of associating me with All That Is Evil, and now you feel comfortable unloading everything on me.
At this point I hope hexbear defederates from lemmygrad. The civility fetishism here is absolutely disgusting.
Good. Now you know even a modicum of what it feels like to stand up against liberals who run in, argue against your lived experience, and shut you down when you get angry over their precious 'civility'. Now, think about some of the shit I've been through. I've had to fucking beg gays in LGBT orgs for years to even get an endorsement of a trans organization. Not even funding, not even material support! An endorsement! And when you become indignant when they won't even do that, of course they are excited to talk down to you about civility. You have no fucking clue how angry civility fetishism makes me. (and for the record, I hate the Human Rights Campaign, their argument was that our area wasnt ready for trans issues to be publicized in any way and were afraid to stick their necks out for us)
Proactive moderation is better than reactive moderation. We should be improving the tools at our disposal to hedge the worst impulses of social media. As a matter of fact, a proactive approach to this conversation to begin with is not to debate me from the outset, but to ask questions and consider what tools would be better than just removing downvotes. There were some people that went into this line of thinking, but its ultimately unsatisfactory (re: keeping downvotes and showing who is downvoting still can make a user aware they are being harassed. it is better remove vectors of harassment and then focus on the core of what makes a community a community, and usually that is comments).
Behold the prudes who desire not to have shit flung at their faces. This cleanliness fetishism is disgusting.
Your demeanor indicates one thing to me. You need to log the fuck off. I'm not trying to be patronizing, you've seemingly completely forgotten how to act like someone worth engaging with.
This shit-flinging tantrum is regarding upvotes/downvotes, not whether trans people deserve human rights or not, try to fucking remember that. It ain't "civility fetishism" when people ask you to explain yourself after calling them losers and bigots. This is little more than wrecker behavior.
I see it as endorsing a vector of harassment against trans people. It has happened before and it will happen again. You can act like its small, but small things build up and cause trans people to be shunned from spaces.
As in my example, an endorsement is small. But a liberal cannot even handle that. Lots of he/hims in my replies though, fun detail.
Do you want me to insult you? Or is the civility only supposed to go one way?
It feels like you're treating the Hexbear downvoted removal as if it's the same as what's happening here. I don't see the similarities.
Almost every single post and comment in LG has 1-6 downvotes, from federated instances, always.
Sometimes a bot gets spun up that slams 30-60 downvotes for a day or so, until they get blocked or the instance gets banned.
These users are constantly spinning up new accounts, and trying again. If they weren't able to do that, what kind of harassment would they move on to?
LG is part of the wider lemmy space, and HB was not (at the time of the downvote removal).
This is a different instance, with different conditions, and if I wanted to have an hb account I would.
I explained to you that debating a lived experience of a minority is not how you go about this. It always ends in this. I even explained how to do better. Did you not comprehend that?
I fail to see how this doesn't help lemmygrad. Downvotes would not be federated, so they wouldn't affect your feed. If someone from lemmy.world or lemmy.ml sees those posts, they will still see the downvotes on their end because those admins havent purged the downvotes. Unless there is some sort of new spam feature that I'm not aware of.
Apples to oranges. Its easier to harass people with downvotes. DMs and comments are less common. And for the record, if I could precog and shoot them through the monitor, I would. Until we get communist precog tech, you'd need to have some sort of way to screen spam and dms and comments from new accounts as that is the bulk of issues. When it comes to targeted harassment, being able to allowlist certain people or instances to dm you is good, and it would also be good to have a hashlist for removing shock content. As an example for an allowlist, maybe if you ever upvoted someone, it could be an option to have that as a dm allowlist.
Luckily I have only experienced DM harassment on hexbear twice, both users were banned within 10 minutes. Still needs an improvement, I did not need to see that dick.
If you're worried about the site culture, the site culture of hexbear and blahaj are very different and remained roughly the same as before, minus downvote harassment.
you're being extremely combative over this, even though you're trying to tell us how to run our own instance
yep, because i know better. i invited you to be a mod even though youre from another instance, being from another instance literally doesnt fucking matter to me at all. i care about the trans community having safe spaces first and foremost, and having a vector for trans people to be attacked is bad. its why i have advocated for defederation in the past from things like blahaj which had chasers that they werent taking action against even though they have a decent number of trans users.
We ban anyone who isn't having a civil discussion, Its different than hexbear but i've seen no issue with it.
Oh well, guess I'll suggest we defederate if they can't handle basic discussion about people harassing transgender people.
If someone is being harassed on Lemmy, we can figure out who's doing the downvoting and ban them. Bring the issue up with a site admin.
Depends, I'm aware how that works. Its better to be proactive about harassment rather than reactive, and changing a system is better than reacting to shortcomings of a system.
transphobes were jettisoned a year ago in the great purge
clearly missed some libs that like talking down to minorities over civility.
you can call them wrong, but calling Muad'Dibber a lib makes absolutely no sense.
Civility shit is lib shit. I've been talked down at enough meetings IRL over basic trans rights stuff that I'm of the opinion those kinds of people should be physically removed from any left wing space immediately
Even in LGBT spaces this sort of thing happens. Don't get me started on the HRC