Well, if we use CO2 to make organic matter then burry it in the ground and wait long enough we could get more fossil fuels to then make protein out of.
EDIT: I see you have redacted this take. That being said,,,
This is being produced from fossil fuel & steel production waste gases, so it's a way to eliminate emissions by trapping them with specially engineered microbes. Reading about the pathways they're using is actually really cool.
We're not getting rid of steel production any time soon, so turning emissions into ethanol (rather than using agricultural products) seems great.
In general I am skeptical of "greening" fossil fuels but the opportunities to make them less harmful present themselves immediately when you look at all the redundant burning and shit involved.
Substituting green sources for the energy intensive fractional distillation process & the hydrogen feedstock in making gasoline could be easier if the overall production of fuels were much lower. (Renewables + continuously chugging fractional distillation seems like a bad mix but batteries are getting way better all the time.)
I read about some of this stuff & how oil refineries work first when I was arguing with "genes aren't real" and "oil is renewable" patsoc people actually. Lol
Interesting. It would be liberalism to think that innovations like this could fix our environmental crises without a revolutionary transformation of the relationship of humans and non-human nature, but considering this is largely an accomplishment of socialism, and China has greater plans than small changes, this is good. Patsocs always have weird anti-science takes, but those are new to me.
I can give you a long list of battery tech & hydrogen stuff & renewables especially coming out of China that makes me hopeful, as well as ecological civilization shit that doubles as climate resistance like sponge cities that Malaysia's getting into. and also some example of stuff i'm not big on we're doing like the 70s era carbon sequestrarion US/EU keep pushing and the like coal to hydrogen lmao
Maybe. Idk if I mentioned the new desalination stuff that looks promising. Other random stuff
cold plasma pyrolysis of trash -> syngas (i've read this can be quite efficient correct me if i'm wrong)
sodium ion batteries (appliances and other applications where density is less important, there are already power drills)
redox flow batteries (very long term storage with many cycles perfect for renewable power stations & datacenters, made from cheap shit, can completely replace large lithium bricks)
zinc solution hydrogen batteries (80% efficiency vs 50% of compressed hydrogen gas, zero fire hazard)
floating wave generators for supplying outlying islands nations throughout the pacific
I was keeping up through dongsheng news, but then I deleted Telegram, so I’m not up to date with tech. Thanks for all this, very optimism inducing.
new desalination stuff
That’s cool asf. Hopefully developments like these will help Mos Def’s observations cease to be true. My one concern is what happens to all the salt. I’ve heard that over-salination can be damaging to ecosystems. Might there be a coming innovation that will allow the production of table salt in addition in this efficient way or something?
cold plasma pyrolysis of trash -> syngas
I think I heard about something like this in like 2018 and have fantasized about it since. I think what I heard was that the Netherlands used it and it was too good or something? I’m glad there have been advancements in it.
sodium ion batteries
redox flow batteries
zinc solution hydrogen batteries
I’m happy about any tech innovation that means less rare mineral extraction is necessary.
oh also on the lithium ion front, there's a cellulose mesh being messed around with that triples the number of recharges you get. and lithium-sulfur is actually feasible now
Regardless of the initial hot take, upon further looks this is a positive development assuming it helps promote future developments and not just fossil meat as the title suggests.
Tbf, my instinct with things like this is to assume that it's more greenwashing or similar. They've tried to have us on too many times before for me to be very trusting.
For sure, but starch could be fed to bacteria or something to do the biosynthesis, definitely opens up a lot of potential. Ideally, CO2 could be captured at the source instead of just being emitted into the atmosphere, then converted to starch, and passed on to other uses from there.
On top of the other points I mentioned (such as sourcing this from emissions which are hard to avoid creating) + raised by Yogthos and other people, I'll add that coal can be stored pretty much indefinitely, and using coal for methanol/ethanol/protein (whatever the applications are) like this instead of boosting agricultural production saves energy in its own right, even it ultimately releases more carbon.
I don't think anyone is actually saying get in the pod and eat the coal. As funny as it sounds
the problem i have w that is the methanol synthesized can be used in further synthesis, rather than as feedstock. we have enough agriculture to feed the world, there’s just a distribution problem. this coal to methanol to protein process will just go to feeding livestock, sustaining industrial torture/murder and increasing pollution. methanol could be used in other processes (as solvent or reagent) that have better value. plants make protein from solar energy, we don’t need to waste carbon that’s already been fixed to make more protein just to create more cattle to torture and eat
Oh come on don't do the vegan nihilism thing, you could even say increased grain production is used to fuel animal farming. That doesn't mean agricultural technology isn't exciting.
Methanol is used for lots of stuff I think it eventually goes into plastic yeah it's exciting.
Do you mean chemical feedstock or animal feed?
This could also be a source of protein for mushrooms or insects (yum), or maybe they can find a way to process this into stuff for agriculture. Finding this pathway is just part of engineering more crazy Yellowstone/Mariana Trench microbes.
I'm sure I'm ignorant of potential industrial grade protein applications
according to the article, the use of this protein production is as animal feed. i used feedstock in the sense that methanol is a biochemical feedstock— “food” for bacteria.
if we're not looking for a problem to have with the creation of the technology, it is quite literally like you could take wood that was harvested from Kopásek that is to say new wood that is not like petrochemicals from an older carbon cycle, but something is rapidly pulled out of the air by trees. You can literally just keep coming off the smaller branches of trees then you can burn that and turn it in the woods gas. The one gas from this can be made in the methanol by this bacteria, which, then it can be fermented directly into proteins. The fuck in Chinese have invented alchemy, said let's eat trees and rocks. apologies for any dictation errors.
I hope there isn't some kind of forthcoming possible scenario where humanity has to survive in a pinch with less arable farmland,,, in that event we'd surely be able to rely on the nations of the world to share protein in a crisis?
Sorry was the comment about producing smoke and syngas and stuff too incoherent? Because you can harvest biomass without logging & it's much more carbon neutral.
Directly trapping unavoidable emissions like coke for steel & turning them into methanol then increasing the applications of that with fermentation or substituting other methanol sources (which can be carbon intensive afaik) just seems like a net good.
I'm just saying it has a famine relief purpose so you don't have to let livestock just die if there's like a brief but manageable nuclear winter? I realize these are insane burger fantasies
just another, more convoluted way to turn coal into CO2. wake me up when they can turn CO2 into protein
Plants can do that. They're wicked smart.
Well, if we use CO2 to make organic matter then burry it in the ground and wait long enough we could get more fossil fuels to then make protein out of.
EU: classifies coal as renewable
Humans produce CO2.
The difference is whether you produce CO2 flying private jets or relieving famine.
Also, you would have to spend energy to go the other way, as CO2 has lower energy than protein.
Fossil powered meat production is not the best way to relieve a famine.
EDIT: I see you have redacted this take. That being said,,,
This is being produced from fossil fuel & steel production waste gases, so it's a way to eliminate emissions by trapping them with specially engineered microbes. Reading about the pathways they're using is actually really cool.
We're not getting rid of steel production any time soon, so turning emissions into ethanol (rather than using agricultural products) seems great.
In general I am skeptical of "greening" fossil fuels but the opportunities to make them less harmful present themselves immediately when you look at all the redundant burning and shit involved.
Substituting green sources for the energy intensive fractional distillation process & the hydrogen feedstock in making gasoline could be easier if the overall production of fuels were much lower. (Renewables + continuously chugging fractional distillation seems like a bad mix but batteries are getting way better all the time.)
I read about some of this stuff & how oil refineries work first when I was arguing with "genes aren't real" and "oil is renewable" patsoc people actually. Lol
Interesting. It would be liberalism to think that innovations like this could fix our environmental crises without a revolutionary transformation of the relationship of humans and non-human nature, but considering this is largely an accomplishment of socialism, and China has greater plans than small changes, this is good. Patsocs always have weird anti-science takes, but those are new to me.
I can give you a long list of battery tech & hydrogen stuff & renewables especially coming out of China that makes me hopeful, as well as ecological civilization shit that doubles as climate resistance like sponge cities that Malaysia's getting into. and also some example of stuff i'm not big on we're doing like the 70s era carbon sequestrarion US/EU keep pushing and the like coal to hydrogen lmao
I did a whole project on this last year, but I’m sure there’s more new stuff that you’re more up to date on than me.
Maybe. Idk if I mentioned the new desalination stuff that looks promising. Other random stuff
cold plasma pyrolysis of trash -> syngas (i've read this can be quite efficient correct me if i'm wrong)
sodium ion batteries (appliances and other applications where density is less important, there are already power drills)
redox flow batteries (very long term storage with many cycles perfect for renewable power stations & datacenters, made from cheap shit, can completely replace large lithium bricks)
zinc solution hydrogen batteries (80% efficiency vs 50% of compressed hydrogen gas, zero fire hazard)
floating wave generators for supplying outlying islands nations throughout the pacific
I was keeping up through dongsheng news, but then I deleted Telegram, so I’m not up to date with tech. Thanks for all this, very optimism inducing.
That’s cool asf. Hopefully developments like these will help Mos Def’s observations cease to be true. My one concern is what happens to all the salt. I’ve heard that over-salination can be damaging to ecosystems. Might there be a coming innovation that will allow the production of table salt in addition in this efficient way or something?
I think I heard about something like this in like 2018 and have fantasized about it since. I think what I heard was that the Netherlands used it and it was too good or something? I’m glad there have been advancements in it.
I’m happy about any tech innovation that means less rare mineral extraction is necessary.
I’m glad there’s progress on those.
oh also on the lithium ion front, there's a cellulose mesh being messed around with that triples the number of recharges you get. and lithium-sulfur is actually feasible now
In this case, the feedstock is methanol, which is not only from coal, but can also be synthesized from CO2.
You can find the paper here: (fig 1)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10540378/
Regardless of the initial hot take, upon further looks this is a positive development assuming it helps promote future developments and not just fossil meat as the title suggests.
Okay consider that we can add this to Minetest & Java Edition MC
Tbf, my instinct with things like this is to assume that it's more greenwashing or similar. They've tried to have us on too many times before for me to be very trusting.
Yeah, on the one hand it sounds like greenwashing, on the other, it’s China.
how about synthesizing starch from CO2 http://www.news.cn/english/2021-09/24/c_1310206762.htm
that’s dope, but proteins are crazy complicated compared to carbohydrates
For sure, but starch could be fed to bacteria or something to do the biosynthesis, definitely opens up a lot of potential. Ideally, CO2 could be captured at the source instead of just being emitted into the atmosphere, then converted to starch, and passed on to other uses from there.
good points, thanks for the interesting articles and insight!
On top of the other points I mentioned (such as sourcing this from emissions which are hard to avoid creating) + raised by Yogthos and other people, I'll add that coal can be stored pretty much indefinitely, and using coal for methanol/ethanol/protein (whatever the applications are) like this instead of boosting agricultural production saves energy in its own right, even it ultimately releases more carbon.
I don't think anyone is actually saying get in the pod and eat the coal. As funny as it sounds
the problem i have w that is the methanol synthesized can be used in further synthesis, rather than as feedstock. we have enough agriculture to feed the world, there’s just a distribution problem. this coal to methanol to protein process will just go to feeding livestock, sustaining industrial torture/murder and increasing pollution. methanol could be used in other processes (as solvent or reagent) that have better value. plants make protein from solar energy, we don’t need to waste carbon that’s already been fixed to make more protein just to create more cattle to torture and eat
Oh come on don't do the vegan nihilism thing, you could even say increased grain production is used to fuel animal farming. That doesn't mean agricultural technology isn't exciting.
Methanol is used for lots of stuff I think it eventually goes into plastic yeah it's exciting.
Do you mean chemical feedstock or animal feed?
This could also be a source of protein for mushrooms or insects (yum), or maybe they can find a way to process this into stuff for agriculture. Finding this pathway is just part of engineering more crazy Yellowstone/Mariana Trench microbes.
I'm sure I'm ignorant of potential industrial grade protein applications
according to the article, the use of this protein production is as animal feed. i used feedstock in the sense that methanol is a biochemical feedstock— “food” for bacteria.
if we're not looking for a problem to have with the creation of the technology, it is quite literally like you could take wood that was harvested from Kopásek that is to say new wood that is not like petrochemicals from an older carbon cycle, but something is rapidly pulled out of the air by trees. You can literally just keep coming off the smaller branches of trees then you can burn that and turn it in the woods gas. The one gas from this can be made in the methanol by this bacteria, which, then it can be fermented directly into proteins. The fuck in Chinese have invented alchemy, said let's eat trees and rocks. apologies for any dictation errors.
I hope there isn't some kind of forthcoming possible scenario where humanity has to survive in a pinch with less arable farmland,,, in that event we'd surely be able to rely on the nations of the world to share protein in a crisis?
😶
we don’t have infinite coal tho
😑 Duly noted.
Sorry was the comment about producing smoke and syngas and stuff too incoherent? Because you can harvest biomass without logging & it's much more carbon neutral.
Directly trapping unavoidable emissions like coke for steel & turning them into methanol then increasing the applications of that with fermentation or substituting other methanol sources (which can be carbon intensive afaik) just seems like a net good.
STRATEGIC EDIBLE COAL RESERVES
Also far more likely than nuclear winter is food sanctions + climate change
I'm just saying it has a famine relief purpose so you don't have to let livestock just die if there's like a brief but manageable nuclear winter? I realize these are insane burger fantasies
*coppicing https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/2020/09/how-to-make-biomass-energy-sustainable-again.html
Coal into Gainz into CO2