He doesn't deserve the pickaxe, but rather deserves getting mocked for the rest of his life for being a Marxist Philistine instead of a Marxist Leninist...
That’s in his time, REEE was referring to now. Plus what use is being popular if your legacy is one of humiliation and being comically wrong on some very significant points that you staked your claim on?
what about what he staked his claims on would be particularly damaging because I feel like in a post-soviet collapse world his writings and beliefs would resonate quite well with people who are anti-soviet union and its legacy along with the derrived countries and ideologies like china and trotskyism but also find themselves thoroughly revolutionary unlike social democrats and pro-organization unlike anarchists
His main claim was the Lenin and the Bolsheviks had turned the Soviet Union into a “dictatorship” by “prematurely” executing the October Revolution in 1917. He claimed that this set back world socialism by decades, would ruin the Soviet Union, and was completely unaligned with the ideals of Marx, Engles, and himself. Hence why Lenin dunked on him with one of the hardest diss tracks in several essays pulling his points apart at the seams.
He further rejected the notion of the “Dictatorship of the Proletariat”, was apathetic to the power wielded by labour unions, and was essentially an idealist anarchist in practice. This is absurd, as how do you reach a communist world, without one of its key and major steps? The world has yet to see a Kaustky based approach because it is all but impossible.
Also who cares about “anti-Soviet Union” chuds? Is that really the audience you want to pander to?
He was disliked and rejected by Luxembourg, Lenin (obviously), Stalin, Trotsky even, Mao, and many more. Guess which side was right in the end?
I am not trying to pander to any sort of audience only talking about the attractiveness of kautsky and his beliefs to people today and giving my theory why. I’m also not very convinced by your line of reasoning because all you’ve said besides appealing to a number of historical figures not agreeing with him is saying he didn’t believe in the dictatorship of the proletariat which is confusing because he wrote an entire pamphlet called “the dictatorship of the proletariat” explaining how he believed in it and believed what russia was doing was not the dictatorship of the proletariat. especially weird since you included rosa luxembourg who famously considered russia to be a police state not adhering to the dictatorship of the proletariat
Kautskys pamphlet is literal dog water. He tried to essentially create his own definition for the “Dictatorship” that was rejected by every contemporary socialist. This is basic socialist knowledge. Have you read any criticism of him, or have you only read his theory? You chose a comical figure to stake your own claim on. The majority of his works are a joke.
What? Rosa Luxembourg died in 1919. She was talking about the Russian Empire. Are you serious?
I’m sorry, but you are both extremely unread and it painfully shows, or you are arguing in bad faith. I hate saying it but sometimes it’s required….. read theory. And not a single disgraced figureheads.
the russian empire did not exist in 1919… is your history that poor?
and here is a quote from rosa luxembourg on the russian revolution
The basic error of the Lenin-Trotsky theory is that they too, just like Kautsky, oppose dictatorship to democracy. “Dictatorship or democracy” is the way the question is put by Bolsheviks and Kautsky alike. The latter naturally decides in favor of “democracy,” that is, of bourgeois democracy, precisely because he opposes it to the alternative of the socialist revolution. Lenin and Trotsky, on the other hand, decide in favor of dictatorship in contradistinction to democracy, and thereby, in favor of the dictatorship of a handful of persons, that is, in favor of dictatorship on the bourgeois model.
as you can read for yourself she did not consider bolshevik russia to be a dictatorship of the proletariat but a dictatorship following the bourgeois model of a handful of people. now I ask again can you actually put out an argument instead of pointing to “rejection by every contemporary socialist” and calling him names please? no need to follow such a childish argumentation style
Yeah, it’s so weird how the Russian “Republic” was all just the same ministers from the Russian empire. Headed by generals and politicians that were core members of the Russian empire. It’s so weird how the White forces wanted to restore the Tsar too…. Weird…. It was almost like the name change was a lie to try and placate the people…
Also oh my god, the Soviet Union was not an official state in 1919. Nice cherry picking of quotes too; completely unsourced and without context. She was referring to how she disagreed with the exact model of the Bolshevik power structure, not the Soviet Union because it didn’t exist moron.
Also even in your own cherry picked quote. Did you notice how she derided Kautsky for being essentially a bourgeoisie shill? She calls him an electoralist and unsocialist for wanting to push for participation in bourgeoisie “democracy”. Even your own quote proves my point. Zero reading comprehension.
You are 100% arguing in bad faith or you are trolling with how oblivious you are. Kautsky is a joke, and I hope you like following the words of a man that have never been put into use, and is regarded as a joke by his contemporaries.
I’m sorry, but you have no clue what you are talking about, and you are about as dense as a brick. Have a good one.
even if that were true and the russian republic was literally the exact same as the russian empire the october revolution happened in 1917... cmon dude you're talking out of your ass here
Are you high? The Russian civil war ended in 1923. Have you ever opened a history book? Are you a child? I’m sorry, you are either 10 years old or one of the densest people I have ever spoken to.
right now I think I know the problem. you don't know the history of the russian civil war. it only took the bolsheviks about a week to take over most of the largest population centers and by russian new year they controlled the majority of russia and were implementing their policy on the country. please just watch this youtube video so you have a general idea of the timeline of events https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLDz5QIjQb0
I’m Belarusian you moron 😂😂😂 my family fought in the civil war.
Educate me harder on my own history, cmon, it’s fun! I’m sure you’re an expert, right?
Your source is a fucking MS paint YouTube video? My god, you really are the a genius. I’m not even going to argue this anymore. You are actually 10 years old or an imbecile.
Keep moving the goalposts! Maybe you’ll come out on top!
you being belarusian just makes this so much more sader for me that you don't know your own history. I have to wonder for whose government the red army was fighting for for in the civil war after trotsky established it on the 28th of january 1918 and how they're getting guns and ammunition and food if the bolsheviks were not in charge of russia. or wtf you think Российская Советская Федеративная Социалистическая Республика means which was established on the 7th of november 1917
That’s your problem. You’re a genuine idiot who thinks that they’re a genius and that other people are “sad” for what, not being the intellectual titan you are?
Have a good one mate, I’m not replying anymore. You’re a very sad individual. Read a book you fucking moron. Jesus Christ you are insufferable with how out of touch and stupid you are. Usually liberals are this bad, but you might as well be one with how you’re a Kautsky fanboy.
See you around. Also fuck you for implying I don’t know my own history. Insufferable asshole.
its okay to admit you're wrong. sorry if hist.msu.ru is not a good enough citation for you. I dunno if moscow state university is an authoritative enough source or if I need to go back to youtube videos
send as many clown emojis as you want dude. you know I know that you know you were wrong and whether or not you slept through history class in belarus or whatever country you were raised in has nothing to do with the simple fact rosa died after the russian soviet federative socialist republic was established and the bolsheviks were in control of the country. its such a dumb hill to die on
Wittle baby temper tantrum because they have about the same level of intelligence as a rock. Aww, gonna cry some more? I’m laughing at you. You’re a joke. I’m not going to bother spending time interacting with you because you are really that goddamn stupid.
I get it. you're immature and are unable to concede a point. you really should reflect back on the fact I literally haven't called you a single name while you've been calling me unread, dense, high, a child, an imbecile, insufferably stupid, insufferably an asshole, along with other things.
You don’t get to take the moral high road here. You have been gaudy, pretentious, and insufferable. I stand by everything I’ve said.
I’m not going to reflect on anything because you have been worse then a liberal with how poorly you have approached this conversation. How much did you shift the goal posts?
you knew the rules
He doesn't even have the good skills of Trotsky
He doesn't deserve the pickaxe, but rather deserves getting mocked for the rest of his life for being a Marxist Philistine instead of a Marxist Leninist...
Tbf, Kautsky is best known for being dunked on by Lenin. So you got your wish granted.
this is unfair, during his time kautsky was the most popular and well known marxist. that didn't change until after the october revolution
That’s in his time, REEE was referring to now. Plus what use is being popular if your legacy is one of humiliation and being comically wrong on some very significant points that you staked your claim on?
what about what he staked his claims on would be particularly damaging because I feel like in a post-soviet collapse world his writings and beliefs would resonate quite well with people who are anti-soviet union and its legacy along with the derrived countries and ideologies like china and trotskyism but also find themselves thoroughly revolutionary unlike social democrats and pro-organization unlike anarchists
His main claim was the Lenin and the Bolsheviks had turned the Soviet Union into a “dictatorship” by “prematurely” executing the October Revolution in 1917. He claimed that this set back world socialism by decades, would ruin the Soviet Union, and was completely unaligned with the ideals of Marx, Engles, and himself. Hence why Lenin dunked on him with one of the hardest diss tracks in several essays pulling his points apart at the seams.
He further rejected the notion of the “Dictatorship of the Proletariat”, was apathetic to the power wielded by labour unions, and was essentially an idealist anarchist in practice. This is absurd, as how do you reach a communist world, without one of its key and major steps? The world has yet to see a Kaustky based approach because it is all but impossible.
Also who cares about “anti-Soviet Union” chuds? Is that really the audience you want to pander to?
He was disliked and rejected by Luxembourg, Lenin (obviously), Stalin, Trotsky even, Mao, and many more. Guess which side was right in the end?
I am not trying to pander to any sort of audience only talking about the attractiveness of kautsky and his beliefs to people today and giving my theory why. I’m also not very convinced by your line of reasoning because all you’ve said besides appealing to a number of historical figures not agreeing with him is saying he didn’t believe in the dictatorship of the proletariat which is confusing because he wrote an entire pamphlet called “the dictatorship of the proletariat” explaining how he believed in it and believed what russia was doing was not the dictatorship of the proletariat. especially weird since you included rosa luxembourg who famously considered russia to be a police state not adhering to the dictatorship of the proletariat
Kautskys pamphlet is literal dog water. He tried to essentially create his own definition for the “Dictatorship” that was rejected by every contemporary socialist. This is basic socialist knowledge. Have you read any criticism of him, or have you only read his theory? You chose a comical figure to stake your own claim on. The majority of his works are a joke.
What? Rosa Luxembourg died in 1919. She was talking about the Russian Empire. Are you serious?
I’m sorry, but you are both extremely unread and it painfully shows, or you are arguing in bad faith. I hate saying it but sometimes it’s required….. read theory. And not a single disgraced figureheads.
the russian empire did not exist in 1919… is your history that poor?
and here is a quote from rosa luxembourg on the russian revolution
as you can read for yourself she did not consider bolshevik russia to be a dictatorship of the proletariat but a dictatorship following the bourgeois model of a handful of people. now I ask again can you actually put out an argument instead of pointing to “rejection by every contemporary socialist” and calling him names please? no need to follow such a childish argumentation style
Yeah, it’s so weird how the Russian “Republic” was all just the same ministers from the Russian empire. Headed by generals and politicians that were core members of the Russian empire. It’s so weird how the White forces wanted to restore the Tsar too…. Weird…. It was almost like the name change was a lie to try and placate the people…
Also oh my god, the Soviet Union was not an official state in 1919. Nice cherry picking of quotes too; completely unsourced and without context. She was referring to how she disagreed with the exact model of the Bolshevik power structure, not the Soviet Union because it didn’t exist moron.
Also even in your own cherry picked quote. Did you notice how she derided Kautsky for being essentially a bourgeoisie shill? She calls him an electoralist and unsocialist for wanting to push for participation in bourgeoisie “democracy”. Even your own quote proves my point. Zero reading comprehension.
You are 100% arguing in bad faith or you are trolling with how oblivious you are. Kautsky is a joke, and I hope you like following the words of a man that have never been put into use, and is regarded as a joke by his contemporaries.
I’m sorry, but you have no clue what you are talking about, and you are about as dense as a brick. Have a good one.
even if that were true and the russian republic was literally the exact same as the russian empire the october revolution happened in 1917... cmon dude you're talking out of your ass here
Are you high? The Russian civil war ended in 1923. Have you ever opened a history book? Are you a child? I’m sorry, you are either 10 years old or one of the densest people I have ever spoken to.
right now I think I know the problem. you don't know the history of the russian civil war. it only took the bolsheviks about a week to take over most of the largest population centers and by russian new year they controlled the majority of russia and were implementing their policy on the country. please just watch this youtube video so you have a general idea of the timeline of events https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLDz5QIjQb0
I’m Belarusian you moron 😂😂😂 my family fought in the civil war.
Educate me harder on my own history, cmon, it’s fun! I’m sure you’re an expert, right?
Your source is a fucking MS paint YouTube video? My god, you really are the a genius. I’m not even going to argue this anymore. You are actually 10 years old or an imbecile.
Keep moving the goalposts! Maybe you’ll come out on top!
What a waste of time.
you being belarusian just makes this so much more sader for me that you don't know your own history. I have to wonder for whose government the red army was fighting for for in the civil war after trotsky established it on the 28th of january 1918 and how they're getting guns and ammunition and food if the bolsheviks were not in charge of russia. or wtf you think Российская Советская Федеративная Социалистическая Республика means which was established on the 7th of november 1917
That’s your problem. You’re a genuine idiot who thinks that they’re a genius and that other people are “sad” for what, not being the intellectual titan you are?
Have a good one mate, I’m not replying anymore. You’re a very sad individual. Read a book you fucking moron. Jesus Christ you are insufferable with how out of touch and stupid you are. Usually liberals are this bad, but you might as well be one with how you’re a Kautsky fanboy.
See you around. Also fuck you for implying I don’t know my own history. Insufferable asshole.
https://www.hist.msu.ru/ER/Etext/cnst1918.htm
literally just read this and tell me if the date at the top is before or after 1919
🤡
its okay to admit you're wrong. sorry if hist.msu.ru is not a good enough citation for you. I dunno if moscow state university is an authoritative enough source or if I need to go back to youtube videos
🤡
send as many clown emojis as you want dude. you know I know that you know you were wrong and whether or not you slept through history class in belarus or whatever country you were raised in has nothing to do with the simple fact rosa died after the russian soviet federative socialist republic was established and the bolsheviks were in control of the country. its such a dumb hill to die on
🤡😂
Wittle baby temper tantrum because they have about the same level of intelligence as a rock. Aww, gonna cry some more? I’m laughing at you. You’re a joke. I’m not going to bother spending time interacting with you because you are really that goddamn stupid.
Wahhh wahhh wahhh 😂
I get it. you're immature and are unable to concede a point. you really should reflect back on the fact I literally haven't called you a single name while you've been calling me unread, dense, high, a child, an imbecile, insufferably stupid, insufferably an asshole, along with other things.
You don’t get to take the moral high road here. You have been gaudy, pretentious, and insufferable. I stand by everything I’ve said.
I’m not going to reflect on anything because you have been worse then a liberal with how poorly you have approached this conversation. How much did you shift the goal posts?
Anyway 🤡
they got banned btw lol, rip bozo
Whomp whomp, L bozo lmao
How could I miss an exchange like this one? That was brutal.
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy: