Speechless because you have no arguments? Just insults. See I can be abrasive, but I wouldn't just call you a name, I'd call you something and then illustrate why you were wrong and why it fits, I'd bring arguments from my corner when making the point.
I couldn't care less if you personally think she shouldn't be reported. I probably wouldn't bother myself due to the risks associated with contacting foreign intelligence. That's not the point per se.
Because it changes nothing of the fact that "lol don't be a snitch" is not a Marxist attitude and is one deserving of being called out and clowned on. Is not the attitude of a communist. It's one that deserves rebuke and perhaps can give some food for thought.
Our goal is to smash our enemies and uphold friendly parties and defend revolutions, that includes those of our allies or for out of power Marxists in the west the actually existing socialist states. Take a different take on this situation, same girl is in trouble with US police, going to prison in the US for a few years over a crime they think they've got her cold on, I have evidence that could exonerate. I'd not bring it forward, I'd let her rot. You might call that hate. But isn't shooting fascists (which no one here would argue with) hate? Isn't that even more violent and liberty depriving? Isn't having socialist police crowd control and detain liberals trying to do a color revolution hate by the same logic? How many steps removed before it's okay? Where is the line drawn and by what logic?
All liberalism and anti-communism everywhere is a threat to communism and the proletariat everywhere. There are of course degrees. Do not assume I am saying that a fascist war criminal who has killed communists with his own hands and works for western intelligence is no worse than this girl or that she's the same as the runner of a propaganda outlet that's funded by NED. And there are degrees of response by in-power communist parties to these things. But the fact remains they are all threats, all can give way to the other, rise from one to the other, work with the other, etc and should not be categorically declared entirely different.
My point is if you people recoil in horror, cringe, cry, flinch, wring your hands at the prospect of some tiny, minor problems being created in some random self-hating Chinese liberal's life (like questioning at the airport back home or electronic surveillance) because of her choices (informed choices by the way given she didn't grow up in the western propaganda machine like me and many here). How on earth are you going to fight and win a revolution? How on earth could you defend a revolution? You'd let the lives of those who fought for a revolution be wasted.
Oh no, she might be sat in a room and grilled for a few hours (as tons of Chinese are by the US simply for their nationality), oh no she might never work for state industries or get into the party and those close to her might be given more scrutiny, the horror, the oppression. How could mean old me ruin her life like this!
Do you not see that from liberalism and fascism are the same. That from benign things like the type of bullshit this girl is alleged to be spouting grow counter-revolution, grow reactionary/fascist terror squads, terror attacks, murders of communists, sabotaging of labor movements, crushing of socialist countries. People like her had a hand in destroying the Soviet Union. The immense suffering of the Russian people is the exact kind of thing she and those like her, if victorious would bring to the Chinese people. The exploitation of children, the suicide rates,, the plundering of the nation, it's people, its resources. You stay your hand, you allow them latitude, you allow them to nibble away, to salami-slice away with slightly escalating tactics until the moment comes when their violence springs forth and unlike you they have no pity, they do not waver or hesitate or consider if it might hurt you or others.
I have love and pity in my heart for the proletariat, for my comrades. For billions of human beings whose lives socialism can improve. I do not have room for that for liberals like this, for self-hating traitorous people with poison in their veins and lies from their mouths. I don't care to pathologize and muse on the psychology. They are impediments, they are enemies. They are not worth trying to fix when that time is so much better spent on unconvinced members of the proletariat.
Who said you were my enemy? You were incorrect. There is room for correcting others within the bounds of friendship and camaraderie and I'd go as far as to say true comrades must correct each other.
I do apologize for coming off rather intensely but that's mere sentiment and tone. The message I stand with.
Also it seems someone is upset in this thread. I was downvoted, you were downvoted in this reply. I don't care either way but I want you to know I'm not downvoting this comment of yours.
I am not incorrect. Your whole premise rests on an assumption that you can tell if a State is "good", benevolent and will last forever. What happens if the current communist party degrades and is replaced by another communist party or by a different faction within it? Uh oh, now you are someone who was a snitch for the previous government, perhaps even snitching on their comrades (they don't know who you've snitched on). Now you're labeled an informant and a suspicious character by the new communist party in power. That's from a personal/pragmatic standpoint.
Now for the "collective" standpoint: Snitching is bad in all countries, socialist or not. If you live in a building with people and you inform on them, guess what? You'll be excluded from all social life. You'll just have to contact the police when you need a few extra chairs for a party you're having, cause the neighbours aren't gonna give it to you.
The aim of individualist liberalism is for us to have social contracts with the state and not with each other. I'd much rather people come to me directly if I'm doing something wrong (maybe I don't know it's wrong) than to have the police come knocking on my door. I'm sure that's the same for most people. And what is the girl's (in OP) "crime"? She expressed an opinion. She didn't form an anti-Chinese group, she didn't pass State secrets to the CIA, she didn't have secret meetings at her home where they performed Falun Gong rituals...
Here's some examples of snitching from the West:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jan/13/lockdowns-uk-true-character-nation-snitches-useless-leaders
https://phys.org/news/2022-11-covid-australians-snitching-neighbors.html
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/pleasure-peril-snitching-pandemic-1.5544367
https://www.politico.eu/article/coronavirus-lockdown-snitches-thrive-in-europe-reports-watchmen-spying-neighbors/
People don't snitch for noble causes like "protecting the revolution" or "guarding the State", people snitch out of envy, or because it makes them feel in control or better than others. Call me a liberal all you want, but I don't want to live in a country full of snitches.
I want you to know I’m not downvoting this comment of yours.
Now for the “collective” standpoint: Snitching is bad in all countries, socialist or not. If you live in a building with people and you inform on them, guess what? You’ll be excluded from all social life. You’ll just have to contact the police when you need a few extra chairs for a party you’re having, cause the neighbours aren’t gonna give it to you.
Easily falsified. I hear someone being beaten by their SO or sexually assaulted. Rather than knock on their door and kindly ask them not to do that. I snitch. If I'm excluded because of that I don't give a fuck.
Your mistake is assuming for some reason that I'm talking about writing daily reports on what people had for lunch, for every little human foible and problem they have like it's my job. Let's be clear, let's get back to the issue because you're being dishonest and moving the goalposts and discussion here. We were originally talking about a Chinese girl, college aged who is spreading lies, not like little being confronted by classmates and lying to not create tension but boastful bragging lies about her country, about the communist party and just generally being a traitor to her people and the revolution.
There is a world of difference between reporting someone like that. And I want to be clear, I am a committed person so if anyone were someone I thought was a danger to a socialist state, were trying to overthrow it, undermine it (and she is undermining it, the US has a strategy of containment, strangulation, decoupling, etc and it relies on spreading propaganda not that they need her help but they offer it), I think that's worth reporting. If I lived in a building and people were conspiring against the in-power communist party and engaging in reactionary thinking I'd report that shit.
You apparently wouldn't. You like most liberals would prefer a false peace. You prefer compromise over dedication and struggle. You and a disheartening amount of people in this thread prefer to preserve friendships and in the process betray Marxism, betray comrades who have given their lives. To deny, to stand down when asked to defend the revolution. To do anything to harm or inconvenience liberals.
Again, Mao has written about this. This is not new, you are not thinking of some brand new thing. I can't speak to where you come from. Maybe you're from a community where snitching is done to capitalist and racist powers but that doesn't apply here anymore than hating on the police does. That's an anarcho-liberal position. That's a knee-jerk, unexamined, lacking will to use power position. That's a lay down and be destroyed position.
I hope there are people unlike many in this thread when the time comes who have the resolve to actually act, to turn against their family if they are fascists, to turn against friends if they are our enemies. Otherwise they spit on the graves of the comrades who have come before and otherwise there is no point. Give up. We might as well scrap Marxism right now and try for voluntary friendship communism by means of electoralism and gradual reform under capitalism which as we know is not a path to success but attitudes like yours mean it's the only way forward.
I am watching a genocide, helplessly. I'm protesting, but I'm not stopping it. It is being perpetrated by these types of liberals. Besides the objective, rational arguments which I have laid out, which many thinkers like Mao have laid out, there is the fact these people deserve what they get. You don't get to laugh at the idea of cops being killed in the west or whatever else adventurist violence or happenstance and then duck and hide behind "oh that's envy, oh that's emotional" as if you're not engaging in the same, as if tons of people here don't do that.
Here’s some examples of snitching from the West:
Listen here. I have said this again and again and again and either you are in very bad faith OR I'm not being eloquent and expressing myself properly.
The west doing bad things is not the same as us doing good things. The west use authority to abuse and crush the workers, that does not mean as your liberal thinking would have it that we renounce authority or using it. The west uses police to crush workers. In a socialist state they are part of protecting the workers and once again we do not renounce them. Extend that logically to what we are talking about.
That said, I'm done. It's like talking to a brick wall and I'm tired of bumping this thread to respond to people who are not presenting new or novel arguments, who are not presenting interesting points of view and who are not I think increasingly engaging in good faith or at least we're on such different wavelengths there can be no conversation.
I doubt this person has actually interacted with people in the real world. To them snitching on this Chinese student/girl/whatever is just some sort of video game decision (like Skyrim or some shit). Completely idealistic and fucking stupid if you ask me.
the fact you liken this to a fucking videogame betrays how deeply unserious you are.
touch grass please I am begging you. Just go outside, vitamin D is good for you.
And I don't even necessarily disagree with you, just everyone involved in this whole thing are cringe as fuck
Did you even read my comment? What are you even talking about? I was talking about that other person, and the fact that they aren't serious and need to touch grass. That's why I likened it to a video game, to show how deeply unserious THEY are. Jesus fucking christ the lack of analysis from the western left. No wonder the fash is going to win. We got dumbasses whose first instinct is to snitch cuz they think they're roleplaying as revolutionaries. And when someone (me) points out how idealitic and video game like that is, I get told I'm unserious? Seriously? Jesus fucking christ...
No I called you unserious because you're digging up a minor disagreement and bad post that someone already got raked over the coals for in their original post, this is just petty drama farming and vague posting. You are acting just as childish as they were if not moreso
Yeah that user is.... uh, I'm speechless.
Speechless because you have no arguments? Just insults. See I can be abrasive, but I wouldn't just call you a name, I'd call you something and then illustrate why you were wrong and why it fits, I'd bring arguments from my corner when making the point.
I couldn't care less if you personally think she shouldn't be reported. I probably wouldn't bother myself due to the risks associated with contacting foreign intelligence. That's not the point per se.
Because it changes nothing of the fact that "lol don't be a snitch" is not a Marxist attitude and is one deserving of being called out and clowned on. Is not the attitude of a communist. It's one that deserves rebuke and perhaps can give some food for thought.
Our goal is to smash our enemies and uphold friendly parties and defend revolutions, that includes those of our allies or for out of power Marxists in the west the actually existing socialist states. Take a different take on this situation, same girl is in trouble with US police, going to prison in the US for a few years over a crime they think they've got her cold on, I have evidence that could exonerate. I'd not bring it forward, I'd let her rot. You might call that hate. But isn't shooting fascists (which no one here would argue with) hate? Isn't that even more violent and liberty depriving? Isn't having socialist police crowd control and detain liberals trying to do a color revolution hate by the same logic? How many steps removed before it's okay? Where is the line drawn and by what logic?
All liberalism and anti-communism everywhere is a threat to communism and the proletariat everywhere. There are of course degrees. Do not assume I am saying that a fascist war criminal who has killed communists with his own hands and works for western intelligence is no worse than this girl or that she's the same as the runner of a propaganda outlet that's funded by NED. And there are degrees of response by in-power communist parties to these things. But the fact remains they are all threats, all can give way to the other, rise from one to the other, work with the other, etc and should not be categorically declared entirely different.
My point is if you people recoil in horror, cringe, cry, flinch, wring your hands at the prospect of some tiny, minor problems being created in some random self-hating Chinese liberal's life (like questioning at the airport back home or electronic surveillance) because of her choices (informed choices by the way given she didn't grow up in the western propaganda machine like me and many here). How on earth are you going to fight and win a revolution? How on earth could you defend a revolution? You'd let the lives of those who fought for a revolution be wasted.
Oh no, she might be sat in a room and grilled for a few hours (as tons of Chinese are by the US simply for their nationality), oh no she might never work for state industries or get into the party and those close to her might be given more scrutiny, the horror, the oppression. How could mean old me ruin her life like this!
Do you not see that from liberalism and fascism are the same. That from benign things like the type of bullshit this girl is alleged to be spouting grow counter-revolution, grow reactionary/fascist terror squads, terror attacks, murders of communists, sabotaging of labor movements, crushing of socialist countries. People like her had a hand in destroying the Soviet Union. The immense suffering of the Russian people is the exact kind of thing she and those like her, if victorious would bring to the Chinese people. The exploitation of children, the suicide rates,, the plundering of the nation, it's people, its resources. You stay your hand, you allow them latitude, you allow them to nibble away, to salami-slice away with slightly escalating tactics until the moment comes when their violence springs forth and unlike you they have no pity, they do not waver or hesitate or consider if it might hurt you or others.
I have love and pity in my heart for the proletariat, for my comrades. For billions of human beings whose lives socialism can improve. I do not have room for that for liberals like this, for self-hating traitorous people with poison in their veins and lies from their mouths. I don't care to pathologize and muse on the psychology. They are impediments, they are enemies. They are not worth trying to fix when that time is so much better spent on unconvinced members of the proletariat.
Your anger and passion, while commendable, is misdirected. We're not your enemies.
Who said you were my enemy? You were incorrect. There is room for correcting others within the bounds of friendship and camaraderie and I'd go as far as to say true comrades must correct each other.
I do apologize for coming off rather intensely but that's mere sentiment and tone. The message I stand with.
Also it seems someone is upset in this thread. I was downvoted, you were downvoted in this reply. I don't care either way but I want you to know I'm not downvoting this comment of yours.
I am not incorrect. Your whole premise rests on an assumption that you can tell if a State is "good", benevolent and will last forever. What happens if the current communist party degrades and is replaced by another communist party or by a different faction within it? Uh oh, now you are someone who was a snitch for the previous government, perhaps even snitching on their comrades (they don't know who you've snitched on). Now you're labeled an informant and a suspicious character by the new communist party in power. That's from a personal/pragmatic standpoint.
Now for the "collective" standpoint: Snitching is bad in all countries, socialist or not. If you live in a building with people and you inform on them, guess what? You'll be excluded from all social life. You'll just have to contact the police when you need a few extra chairs for a party you're having, cause the neighbours aren't gonna give it to you.
The aim of individualist liberalism is for us to have social contracts with the state and not with each other. I'd much rather people come to me directly if I'm doing something wrong (maybe I don't know it's wrong) than to have the police come knocking on my door. I'm sure that's the same for most people. And what is the girl's (in OP) "crime"? She expressed an opinion. She didn't form an anti-Chinese group, she didn't pass State secrets to the CIA, she didn't have secret meetings at her home where they performed Falun Gong rituals...
Here's some examples of snitching from the West:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jan/13/lockdowns-uk-true-character-nation-snitches-useless-leaders
https://phys.org/news/2022-11-covid-australians-snitching-neighbors.html
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/pleasure-peril-snitching-pandemic-1.5544367
https://www.politico.eu/article/coronavirus-lockdown-snitches-thrive-in-europe-reports-watchmen-spying-neighbors/
People don't snitch for noble causes like "protecting the revolution" or "guarding the State", people snitch out of envy, or because it makes them feel in control or better than others. Call me a liberal all you want, but I don't want to live in a country full of snitches.
I don't downvote comments, only upvote or not.
Easily falsified. I hear someone being beaten by their SO or sexually assaulted. Rather than knock on their door and kindly ask them not to do that. I snitch. If I'm excluded because of that I don't give a fuck.
Your mistake is assuming for some reason that I'm talking about writing daily reports on what people had for lunch, for every little human foible and problem they have like it's my job. Let's be clear, let's get back to the issue because you're being dishonest and moving the goalposts and discussion here. We were originally talking about a Chinese girl, college aged who is spreading lies, not like little being confronted by classmates and lying to not create tension but boastful bragging lies about her country, about the communist party and just generally being a traitor to her people and the revolution.
There is a world of difference between reporting someone like that. And I want to be clear, I am a committed person so if anyone were someone I thought was a danger to a socialist state, were trying to overthrow it, undermine it (and she is undermining it, the US has a strategy of containment, strangulation, decoupling, etc and it relies on spreading propaganda not that they need her help but they offer it), I think that's worth reporting. If I lived in a building and people were conspiring against the in-power communist party and engaging in reactionary thinking I'd report that shit.
You apparently wouldn't. You like most liberals would prefer a false peace. You prefer compromise over dedication and struggle. You and a disheartening amount of people in this thread prefer to preserve friendships and in the process betray Marxism, betray comrades who have given their lives. To deny, to stand down when asked to defend the revolution. To do anything to harm or inconvenience liberals.
Again, Mao has written about this. This is not new, you are not thinking of some brand new thing. I can't speak to where you come from. Maybe you're from a community where snitching is done to capitalist and racist powers but that doesn't apply here anymore than hating on the police does. That's an anarcho-liberal position. That's a knee-jerk, unexamined, lacking will to use power position. That's a lay down and be destroyed position.
I hope there are people unlike many in this thread when the time comes who have the resolve to actually act, to turn against their family if they are fascists, to turn against friends if they are our enemies. Otherwise they spit on the graves of the comrades who have come before and otherwise there is no point. Give up. We might as well scrap Marxism right now and try for voluntary friendship communism by means of electoralism and gradual reform under capitalism which as we know is not a path to success but attitudes like yours mean it's the only way forward.
I am watching a genocide, helplessly. I'm protesting, but I'm not stopping it. It is being perpetrated by these types of liberals. Besides the objective, rational arguments which I have laid out, which many thinkers like Mao have laid out, there is the fact these people deserve what they get. You don't get to laugh at the idea of cops being killed in the west or whatever else adventurist violence or happenstance and then duck and hide behind "oh that's envy, oh that's emotional" as if you're not engaging in the same, as if tons of people here don't do that.
Listen here. I have said this again and again and again and either you are in very bad faith OR I'm not being eloquent and expressing myself properly.
The west doing bad things is not the same as us doing good things. The west use authority to abuse and crush the workers, that does not mean as your liberal thinking would have it that we renounce authority or using it. The west uses police to crush workers. In a socialist state they are part of protecting the workers and once again we do not renounce them. Extend that logically to what we are talking about.
That said, I'm done. It's like talking to a brick wall and I'm tired of bumping this thread to respond to people who are not presenting new or novel arguments, who are not presenting interesting points of view and who are not I think increasingly engaging in good faith or at least we're on such different wavelengths there can be no conversation.
You're really a debate bro aren't you? lolololol
I doubt this person has actually interacted with people in the real world. To them snitching on this Chinese student/girl/whatever is just some sort of video game decision (like Skyrim or some shit). Completely idealistic and fucking stupid if you ask me.
the fact you liken this to a fucking videogame betrays how deeply unserious you are.
touch grass please I am begging you. Just go outside, vitamin D is good for you.
And I don't even necessarily disagree with you, just everyone involved in this whole thing are cringe as fuck
Did you even read my comment? What are you even talking about? I was talking about that other person, and the fact that they aren't serious and need to touch grass. That's why I likened it to a video game, to show how deeply unserious THEY are. Jesus fucking christ the lack of analysis from the western left. No wonder the fash is going to win. We got dumbasses whose first instinct is to snitch cuz they think they're roleplaying as revolutionaries. And when someone (me) points out how idealitic and video game like that is, I get told I'm unserious? Seriously? Jesus fucking christ...
No I called you unserious because you're digging up a minor disagreement and bad post that someone already got raked over the coals for in their original post, this is just petty drama farming and vague posting. You are acting just as childish as they were if not moreso
"deeply unserious" at this point might as well be the new "tankie"
So whatever you do you fam....
Good luck with your revolution bro. gimme a shout out when it's successful. hopefully nobody snitches on you LOLOLOLOILOL