Ukraine will be able to use Danish and Dutch F-16s to strike into Russia, while Belgium is saying only for use in 1991-border Ukraine.

Archived version: https://archive.ph/Iv4Fu

  • 420blazeit69 [he/him]
    ·
    6 months ago

    Stated policy means stated policy, not "a bunch of bureaucrats were assigned the same book once."

    they are sourcing a Duma member on Russian state television

    Fair enough. It's still a far cry from anyone in a position to actually use nukes saying anything like that, though. Here's the stated policy of Russia on the topic:

    Putin reiterated Russia’s formal position on the use of nuclear weapons in a statement to the Russian HRC on December 7 with no noteworthy changes. Putin claimed that the threat of nuclear war is growing, but that Russia will not be the first to employ nuclear weapons. Putin added, however, that if Russia is not the first to initiate the first use of nuclear weapons, it will also not be the second to do so, because the “possibility of using [a nuclear weapon] in the event of a nuclear strike on [Russian] territory are very limited.” Putin reiterated that Russian nuclear doctrine is premised on self-defense and stated that any Russian nuclear use would be retaliatory... Putin’s statements support ISW’s previous assessment that while Russian officials may engage in forms of nuclear saber-rattling as part of an information operation meant to undermine Western support for Ukraine, Russian officials have no intention of actually using them on the battlefield.

    Why does some random Duma member's offhand comments mean more than this?

    Ukrainian separatists in Russian "little green men" uniforms

    So your theory is that Russia intentionally shot down a civilian airliner, targeting the Netherlands specifically... why, exactly? Do you think they're mustache-twirling villains who do evil stuff because evil is fun?

    Proportional retaliation for their aggressive actions.

    Ok, what proportional retaliation does the U.S. deserve for Iraq?

    • maynarkh@feddit.nl
      ·
      6 months ago

      Stated policy means stated policy, not “a bunch of bureaucrats were assigned the same book once.”

      It's the top bureaucrats of Russia, and they have been quacking in unison with the book ever since.

      Why does some random Duma member’s offhand comments mean more than this?

      Because they are a representative of the government of the country, and have influence over the shaping of the policy of the country. It doesn't mean more, it is what you call a threat. You can say it's an empty threat, but it's still a threat nonetheless. The Russians are basically threatening us, then officially saying "don't worry, we're just lying!", then expect us to believe the lie they say is a lie instead of the possible lie they say is not a lie.

      If it is not a valid point to make from that Duma member, I'd expect him to get seriously reprimanded, impeached from the Duma and possibly put in jail for threatening the national security of Russia. It still happened and is happening regularly with Russian government officials, on Russian state television.

      So your theory is that Russia intentionally shot down a civilian airliner, targeting the Netherlands specifically… why, exactly? Do you think they’re mustache-twirling villains who do evil stuff because evil is fun?

      Not my theory, but the conclusion of the quite transparently evidenced investigation done by a multi-country team is that members of the Russian Armed Forces took a heavy anti-aircraft missile launcher owned by the Russian Armed Forces into the territory internationally recognized as belonging to the sovereign state of Ukraine. They used that launcher to engage what they thought was a medium weight military transport plane operated by the military of Ukraine, a country they were not at war with. Due to their own incompetence, what they engaged was a Malaysian heavy airline passenger transport with mostly Dutch passengers aboard.

      Just to make it clear, they were so grossly incompetent that they saw a plane travelling above 36000 ft - way above it most likely - going 500 knots, and they identified it as a plane with a service ceiling of 24000 ft with a cruise speed of 240 knots. This is on top of the fact that they could have literally gone on Flightradar and saw an airliner scheduled to fly in that area at that time, and that the airliner was equipped with ADS-B-out systems which meant that they could have checked that it was an airliner with a gadget that a hobbyist can put together at home without giving their position away. The aircraft was literally screaming "I'm airliner registration 9M-MRD, at altitude xx, speed yy and position zz, here's how to avoid me" on freely receivable radio.

      So they wanted to kill some Ukrainian soldiers - unlawfully as they were not at war by the way - and they have managed to kill hundreds of Dutch civilians. And then they kept lying about it and accusing Ukraine of doing it. So no, it's not because they think evil is fun, it's because they are uncaring, cynical and incompetent people.

      Ok, what proportional retaliation does the U.S. deserve for Iraq?

      An unlimited defensive war from the government of Iraq, international condemnation, and possible military aid for the government of Iraq to fight against the US. I would support that. As well as dragging Bush and Blair in front of the ICC for it.

      Look, I get that the world is not fair, and I don't say I think it's right that while Palestinian children are genocided by Israel, dickheads like Bibi, Bush, Kissinger, Putin and Dugin get to live a hatefully long and happy life. I am also not saying that there is a "good" side to the world and a "bad" side. There are plenty of bad people all over.

      All I'm saying is that Russia is the imperialist invader in this instance, just as the US was in Iraq or Vietnam. To be honest, I see a ton of parallels with this war and Vietnam, with weapons used making large swathes of the country uninhabitable - agent orange and landmines - the massacres at My Lai and Bucha, even the aggressor supporting and subverting a small faction to give it legitimacy over the country's democratic majority.

      I can only hope the outcome would be similar as well, with the aggressor turning tail and going home in shame.

      And all I'm saying is that there are more than two sides to this, and just as the US is not on the right side of history just because Stalin, Russia is not there either just because Kissinger.

      • 420blazeit69 [he/him]
        ·
        6 months ago

        It's the top bureaucrats of Russia

        Jesus Christ, you were wrong. If you can't acknowledge that reality, I'm not wasting any more time with you.