The argument I've seen people making that I've just been clicking away with disgust for but don't have an actual argument against is that we should for slightly less violently homophobic/sexist/ideologically chuddite conditions in the West so that organizing for an actual insurrection is easier. I don't think they actually plan on organizing but if by some universal alignment they actually do I don't know if I can blame them.
Gotta step back and critically analyze the situation.
Agonizing over a single vote is itself a liberal proposition. It assumes that this is your political agency and very important. Really, it isn't. Even electorally if you ever want to accomplish something it has to be done via collective organizing to have any meaningful strategic value.
If you then frame a personal voting choice as simply a reflection of personal morality rather than anything with strategic goals, it becomes straightforward. Don't vote for genociders or you are complicit.
If a person thinks they are going to be a strategic voter and work collectively, then they need to state their goals, how the strategy will achieve them, and what work they will do to build their organization. They are probably doing none of this. They are probably just pretending that their personal vote is somehow strategic, which it isn't, it's just the liberal false framing I first mentioned.
But if they do want to work strategically, they think power requires collective organization re: electoralism, then they need to do the hard things and confront where their logic will immediately fail. If you are organizing a group to "strategically" support Democrats in general from a leftist harm reductio perspective then what on earth distinguishes you from every other non profit industrial complex grifter that sheepdogs correct left agitation back into liberal normalization and the reinforcement of genocidal capitalist parties? Even putting aside the fact that Dems will turn on you the moment it is convenient, this is just working against yourself and for your opposition. You could spend your time much better to push specific policies and build the leverage to do so. If what you care about is electoralism that means establishing consequences for failing to meet your organization's demands. Electorally that means withholding votes, funds, and volunteer hours and using them to do something else. It means doing the opposite of what the person you are talking to just advocated for.
I probably have more to add late but yeah this checks out
I guess a theoretical leftist org could take a stance of "democrats are genocidal maniacs, but vote for them for strategic reasons" but like... Good luck spreading that sentiment lmao
Yeah and you'd need to get your whole org canvassing to make any real difference. And at that point the obvious questions come up like, "why isn't your org making demands?" and "why isn't your org running candidates?"
It's basically just recapitulating the incompetent electoralist strategies of the DSA (internalized liberal propaganda) and ignoring the successful ones (actually building power and trying to use influence).
The argument I've seen people making that I've just been clicking away with disgust for but don't have an actual argument against is that we should
for slightly less violently homophobic/sexist/ideologically chuddite conditions in the West so that organizing for an actual insurrection is easier. I don't think they actually plan on organizing but if by some universal alignment they actually do I don't know if I can blame them.
Gotta step back and critically analyze the situation.
Agonizing over a single vote is itself a liberal proposition. It assumes that this is your political agency and very important. Really, it isn't. Even electorally if you ever want to accomplish something it has to be done via collective organizing to have any meaningful strategic value.
If you then frame a personal voting choice as simply a reflection of personal morality rather than anything with strategic goals, it becomes straightforward. Don't vote for genociders or you are complicit.
If a person thinks they are going to be a strategic voter and work collectively, then they need to state their goals, how the strategy will achieve them, and what work they will do to build their organization. They are probably doing none of this. They are probably just pretending that their personal vote is somehow strategic, which it isn't, it's just the liberal false framing I first mentioned.
But if they do want to work strategically, they think power requires collective organization re: electoralism, then they need to do the hard things and confront where their logic will immediately fail. If you are organizing a group to "strategically" support Democrats in general from a leftist harm reductio perspective then what on earth distinguishes you from every other non profit industrial complex grifter that sheepdogs correct left agitation back into liberal normalization and the reinforcement of genocidal capitalist parties? Even putting aside the fact that Dems will turn on you the moment it is convenient, this is just working against yourself and for your opposition. You could spend your time much better to push specific policies and build the leverage to do so. If what you care about is electoralism that means establishing consequences for failing to meet your organization's demands. Electorally that means withholding votes, funds, and volunteer hours and using them to do something else. It means doing the opposite of what the person you are talking to just advocated for.
I probably have more to add late but yeah this checks out
I guess a theoretical leftist org could take a stance of "democrats are genocidal maniacs, but vote for them for strategic reasons" but like... Good luck spreading that sentiment lmao
Yeah and you'd need to get your whole org canvassing to make any real difference. And at that point the obvious questions come up like, "why isn't your org making demands?" and "why isn't your org running candidates?"
It's basically just recapitulating the incompetent electoralist strategies of the DSA (internalized liberal propaganda) and ignoring the successful ones (actually building power and trying to use influence).