bibo
@biboofficial
am i going to get yelled at

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E5vr5-WVgAM6Ih6?format=jpg&name=large

https://twitter.com/biboofficial/status/1412982293963018247

Western leftists: eat less meat, that is individual choice and it matters greatly!

Global south: burn less carbon, pls, the ocean is drowning us

Western leftists: :pit: :pit: :pit:

  • Vncredleader
    ·
    3 years ago

    They weren't though. The first actions taken against slavery came from Quakers together voting to oppose it though this amounted to nothing materially. The next was the Georgian colony in 1733 banning slavery via its founder who fought attempts to change this. In Massachusetts various Freedom Suits occurred and legal battles over slavery raged.

    The early acts of American abolitionism came from organizations, and they went for the throat. Even community based actions like those taken by Quakers did not just amount to berating people for wearing cotton or something, rather a community would purchase slaves from other Quakers and free them, if they refused they would be ostracized from the community. They went after slave owners first, foremost, and almost exclusively right from the start. The Pennsylvania Abolition Society also focused on going for the throat even with very few members. They got their founder, Benjamin Franklin to petition congress as president to ban slavery in 1790. Not exactly consumer choices.

    I appreciate your point, but Waterbear is right about the history being different

    • SolidaritySplodarity [they/them]
      ·
      3 years ago

      They weren’t though. The first actions taken against slavery came from Quakers together voting to oppose it though this amounted to nothing materially.

      The first actions among Quakers were scattered and individualistic, with arguments thrown back and forth about what to do and whether Quakers should be enslavers and people trying all kinds of different things, including petitions, traveling to spread the word to other Quaker communities, writing books. The boycotts were actually more collective and more direct than several of these, but at their core these activities built solidarity. None were sufficient. Many still helped. That much less money to enslavers. That many fewer people enslaved by Quakers themselves as it became unacceptable to be both Quaker and enslaver. You didn't get that solidarity immediately, it took decades. We don't have anything remotely like that. And still that would never be sufficient, either: it was just enough for them to help build the rest of the abolitionist movement. People actually being on the same page, which clearly we are not: most people focused on individual actions on the climate are liberals who are worried about it, don't know what we can do, try to do something with their own lives knowing it won't be sufficient, and implicitly think something will give in the future to make things okay.

      They're not frantic, focused on collapse. Just like with the Quakers, where women ran home finance, the gender roles of the imperial core pop up in these groups: a fuckload of moms and younger women. Some of the most female-dominated spaces on the internet I've ever seen. The personal economic connection is a concrete way to build solidarity through positive action that we all know is insufficient.

      Also, I was implicitly thinking of American abolitionists, which I should get out of the habit of doing. UK Quakers had more and earlier success at collective approaches, though not the only successes.

      The next was the Georgian colony in 1733 banning slavery via its founder who fought attempts to change this. In Massachusetts various Freedom Suits occurred and legal battles over slavery raged.

      Of course, but these were all the very earliest days. I should've communicated my thoughts better. The abolitionist movement was small in the colonies for ages, then got much more popular from the late 1700s to the 1830s or so, when it finally became large enough and was able to pick fights on containing the expansion of slave states. When I think "early groups" that includes those in the mid to late 1700s, even. They all employed a mixture of individual and collective tactics, but boycotting was a common way to have solidarity by then, if one could afford it.

      The early acts of American abolitionism came from organizations, and they went for the throat. Even community based actions like those taken by Quakers did not just amount to berating people for wearing cotton or something, rather a community would purchase slaves from other Quakers and free them, if they refused they would be ostracized from the community. They went after slave owners first, foremost, and almost exclusively right from the start.

      Something that had to be built up over time from individuals taking seemingly individual actions appealing to their communities. We have even less to start with organizationally than the Quakers did. Who are we going to ostracize, if that is an example of meaningful collective action to contrast with individualistic climate action? We aren't even in the same orgs. Do we declare, "nobody who purchases X, Y, or Z can be in DSA"? We don't have enough solidarity in merely avoiding X, Y, and Z among most of our comrades. A bunch of people are fighting me about it right now in this thread and making unsupported and personal accusations against me.

      Organizationally speaking on this issue, we're in the 1500s. I have hope that we can organize faster given the educational state of kids in the imperial core and rapidly contradictions of capitalism, but we have to build from where we are, which is far, far behind Quakers even in the 1600s.

      The Pennsylvania Abolition Society also focused on going for the throat even with very few members. They got their founder, Benjamin Franklin to petition congress as president to ban slavery in 1790. Not exactly consumer choices.

      Right, we're nowhere near there yet. We're purely on a mode of political action where the ruling class dictates messaging and movements downwards more than the reverse via a heavily propagandized populace. The closest thing to this is a farcical one, like the Green New Deal, which aside from its own insufficiencies and injustices did not come from a grassroots organized demand but from a handful of ruling class legislators with some level of (still liberal) ideological commitment.

      The most widely-known org with any cache is constantly getting its members arrested for no reason and the loudest spokesperson is a high schooler getting easily coopted by the ruling class. We don't have a common ecosocialist organization to join in our countries or even regions.

      We have nothing. No community, no org, no membership, no actions. We have to build from this, grow orgs, educate, and keep going. Individual calls to action are how you hook people and get their information to get them to come to your more collective actions.

      I appreciate your point, but Waterbear is right about the history being different

      They're not, there's just a miscommunication.

      • Vncredleader
        ·
        edit-2
        3 years ago

        Boycotting is not what the meme is arguing over though. The meme is assuming that leftists who identify that our consumer choices have next to no actual effect on climate change policy and extraction industries are stupid cause they do minutely matter in a technical sense.

        This whole thread is about that meme, not about the viability of boycotts writ large. No one is saying dont do boycotts, the push back is to the meme patronizing people for saying the truth, that those consumer measures are minor at best and many cannot actually afford to implement them or care. That as states burn, worrying about your plastic straw is like arranging the chairs on the Titanic. Yes chair arrangement is important and all,no one is disagreeing with the concept of chairs ffs, they are disagreeing with the time and place

        Like the calculus is correct and understandable: if the navy pollutes more in a day than all of us possibly can, then even if we somehow caused a minor change in how much is produced, we will not have stopped the onslaught of destruction. Patronizing people for not caring about consumer choices is not going to build a movement, and any change will be too little too late. Any efforts need to be dedicated to destroying capitalism first and foremost, we cannot wait for organizing for a century to get some collective bargaining power. The US military existing is the biggest threat even just environmentally, and individualistic recruitment wont bring that down in time. Or can be co-opted like the decades long push for recycling which just meant push our trash onto the global south

        • SolidaritySplodarity [they/them]
          ·
          3 years ago

          Boycotting is not what the meme is arguing over though. The meme is assuming that leftists who identify that our consumer choices have next to no actual effect on climate change policy and extraction industries are stupid cause they do minutely matter in a technical sense.

          I mean OP is mocking people but the meme is making a correct point about the oft-cited "it's corporations, not us" excuse to do nothing being faulty. And I do mean nothing, these are ideas flippantly thrown around to become a doomer.

          I don't really want to rehash OP's meme, though. That isn't what we've been talking about regarding Quakers and boycotts.

          This whole thread is about that meme, not about the viability of boycotts writ large.

          Except for when people make incorrect negative generalizations about the futility of boycotts and other "individualistic" actions.

          No one is saying dont do boycotts, the push back is to the meme patronizing people for saying the truth, that those consumer measures are minor at best and many cannot actually afford to implement them or care. That as states burn, worrying about your plastic straw is like arranging the chairs on the Titanic. Yes chair arrangement is important and all,no one is disagreeing with the concept of chairs ffs, they are disagreeing with the time and place

          I've repeatedly made the point of insufficiency vs. pointlessness and the errors that we make by leaving dismissals unqualified and without offering concrete alternatives that build on enthusiasm. I think they contradict this very well.

          Nothing you do right now is going to be sufficient to create a revolution, yet a revolution is necessary. Are you going to stop working towards revolution? Are you going to tell people that all of your socialist work will inherently have "no actual effect" and that they are "rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic"? So many people here confuse limitations for futility or implicitly dismiss the option of coopting and diverting cynical corporate PR, but I can guarantee that this is selectively employed as a rationalization that functions to protect one's views, not a coherent push for better organization.

          Like the calculus is correct and understandable: if the navy pollutes more in a day than all of us possibly can, then even if we somehow caused a minor change in how much is produced, we will not have stopped the onslaught of destruction. Patronizing people for not caring about consumer choices is not going to build a movement, and any change will be too little too late. Any efforts need to be dedicated to destroying capitalism first and foremost, we cannot wait for organizing for a century to get some collective bargaining power. The US military existing is the biggest threat even just environmentally, and individualistic recruitment wont bring that down in time. Or can be co-opted like the decades long push for recycling which just meant push our trash onto the global south

          You assume that these are isolated and dichotomous options, or even options that are in conflict. They are not. Zero actions taken today as socialists are solving our problems. None of our problems. None of them. They all have the problem of being a drop in the bucket, but they all build if we create them in solidarity, build connections, build the ranks of organizations with them. We need sufficient mass action created through a process of smaller insufficient actions or should just be doomers and check out of the conversation altogether so that those who do want to try will not be saddled with that association.

          We can never organize around simply having the sufficient collective power immediately or without a concrete plan that is "fast enough". That is pure fantasy.

          Here's a challenge: find a single comment in this thread that has promoted joining any specific organization to build collective power.

          • Vncredleader
            ·
            3 years ago

            This thread is not about organizing and collective power. Search the comment history of anyone here and you will find promotions for joining specific orgs and shit. People are not going to lay out an answer you like to a question the OP didn't ask

            Also you act like people who are not interested in complaining about others complaining about the scale of corporate pollution are just wanting to check out of the conversation and are at odds with the saintly ones who "do want to try". Its a false dichotomy, no one here has said dont try to cut down on waste. People are shitting on the sanctimonious BS of the meme and preconfigured strawman of "western leftists" who are just so irresponsible cause they believe that consumer choices dont matter and will never matter when it comes to production.

            No one is asking you to be "saddled with that association", this is not an organizing thread for pete's sake. Shaming people or bickering about incremental change because they dislike a meme calling everyone who views corporations as immovably involved in climate change a triggered settler. People are shitting on the meme, not the imagined good faith conversation.

            Oh and which socialists? Cause a heck of a lot are solving our problems with their actions and not through consumer choices or yelling at imaginary leftists. Look at China's environmental policies or any other socialist party in power