But people said the same thing about photography and painting 150 years ago!

This is entirely different from that. Landscaping had aesthetic value after photography because people were able to embellish and stylize landscapes in ways they didn't actually exist in real life. There is no way to "escape" from AI into more stylization. All it takes is enough of those new stylized images and it'll be able to replicate it. This is different from photography because photography can't learn.

But people want human expression!

Yes, they do, but they'll probably only realize this after a couple decades of art [almost] completely uninspired by the human condition and depression and anxiety skyrockets. In the short term, people will only care that they can type into a field and get what they want without any significant investment. Good luck finding an art job that isn't just making prompts in that economy (And if you say that making prompts is the same as being a painter or illustrator, yes it is art but no it isn't the same and fuck you).

I rest my case, art automation is cool but under capitalism it'll only be used to devalue artists further, and drive them deeper into poverty. It would be a great tool in a society capable of regulating itself but WE DON'T LIVE IN THAT SOCIETY AND I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO POINT THAT OUT.

STOP LISTENING TO :melon-musk: :debatebro-l: AND SUPPORT YOUR ARTIST COMRADES NOW

Now that I got your attention with my inflammatory statements, please commission your artist comrades and support them in their struggle to exist in what is already a very punishing world to live in. I promise to give any of you that do big hugs, I love you all, and bye.

  • Presents [none/use name]
    ·
    2 years ago

    Yaknow, if artists had been more sympathetic to the problems of the working class, I might feel more. But no. Artists treat the working class with a great deal of flippancy and contempt. Pardon me while I get out the world's smallest violin.

    You know the painting called "American Gothic"? The farmer with the pitchfork standing next to the woman? First of all, that's not his wife, it is his spinster daughter. Moreover in the background there is a gothic window? It's mocking them. That's right, if there's one group of people deserving of mockery it's midwestern Americans who live in rural areas. How dare they live in houses built 50 years ago implementing styles that were popular at the time! “Who would live in this outdated house?” asked the artist. Then the East Coast art critics dogpiled on, disparagingly declaring that this represents rural backwardness. And this was in the 1930s and it's only gotten worse since then. Of course the midwesterners even back in the 1930s had tractors and modern farm equipment, but no serious artist thinks they have anything worthwhile to listen to.

    "Poetry is nobody's business except the poet's," wrote Philip Larkin, "and everybody else can fuck off."

    • AcidSmiley [she/her]
      ·
      2 years ago

      Yeah, let's use a painting from the 1930s as an example why graphic designers pushing pixels for minimum wage (actually below minimum wage if you account for unpaid overtime) do not deserve class solidarity from "real workers". Very cool and materialist analysis, totally not divisive shit stirring and totally not a pure appeal to emotion.

      • Presents [none/use name]
        ·
        2 years ago

        Please point us to this magical place of sympathy and understanding among artists for the working class, because to the rest of us it's as mythical as Stoval'Kor.

        American Gothic popped to mind because I just found out the other day it was mocking the little people for living in outdated houses, but this sort of attitude is all over the place. Visit any art gallery. Ask artists what they think of people who work for a living.

        • nat_turner_overdrive [he/him]
          ·
          2 years ago

          Visit any art gallery. Ask artists what they think of people who work for a living.

          "go to a place that caters to and promotes mostly the wealthy and the children of the wealthy and ask them about their opinion of less wealthy people" is not the own you may initially think it is

          • Presents [none/use name]
            ·
            2 years ago

            OK, so now we've admitted that part of the artistic community has a problem with punching down. Making progress.

            Where may we find this mythical hive of sympathy and understanding for the problems of the working class? It must be a secret society. One that does such a good job of staying hidden that evidence for its existence is undetectable.

            • nat_turner_overdrive [he/him]
              ·
              2 years ago

              Are you a materialist or a liberal? It doesn't matter what the wealthy "arty" stereotypes are like or say about you and me. They don't represent all artists, and even if they did they arrived at their position and beliefs due to this thing called material conditions.

                • nat_turner_overdrive [he/him]
                  ·
                  2 years ago

                  The only artist I know personally works in auto body because he's not a wealthy elite. Fuck him because there are not sympathetic artists.

                  Anyway :LIB:

        • MC_Kublai [none/use name]
          ·
          2 years ago

          Please point us to this magical place where this post and poster belong

          Oh hey, look who it is! :gulag:

        • Riffraffintheroom [none/use name]
          ·
          2 years ago

          I dont believe you have any experience at all dealing with artists beyond some very lazy and surface-level cultural stereotypes. You also seem to think that all artists are gallery artists? Thats a vanishingly small sector of creative work and one of the only thats totally insulated from the effects of AI competition.

      • Presents [none/use name]
        ·
        2 years ago

        A lot of people get uncomfortable when it's pointed out that they've been punching down.

        If you want sympathy out of this world, first you have to put it in.

        • charly4994 [she/her, comrade/them]
          ·
          2 years ago

          What's the magical sympathy quota that must be given to the world before one deserves it back? The leftist position is that we feel for our fellow humans because we can see a better life for all. The vegan position pushes that all life deserves to be treated with respect and that the inhumane conditions we subject other creatures to is unconscionable. People can have worse experiences under capitalism than others, it does not invalidate the fact that a nurse working 12 hour days with a patient load 2 times the pre-covid levels has a hard job. The child slave working on a cocoa plantation has it worse but the leftist position states that both deserve a better life. An artist has to go through a different set of stressors and challenges than the nurse, artists are underpaid and overworked like pretty much every worker under capitalism. Just because some artists can be dicks and class traitors does not condemn an entire facet of the human condition. Art has existed for millennia and to say that you don't care because some American artist made a painting that made fun of rural farmers is to miss the entire goddamn point of being a leftist.

    • Gamer_time [he/him]
      ·
      2 years ago

      :juche-WPK: Boy, I wonder what this paintbrush is for? :GDR-emblem: Or this funny little thing in front of this hammer? Get outta here, artists are workers too!

        • Gamer_time [he/him]
          ·
          2 years ago

          :lenin-sure:

          They are workers because they sell their own labor power, sure they own their own means, but they (in most cases, afaik) do not exploit others nor seek rent, they survive solely on their own work. Or take an artist working for a company with company equipment, suddenly they do not own their own means anymore, just their labor power which they are then selling. Magically, the artist now fits in with the usual description of a worker.

          • ThomasMuentzner [he/him, comrade/them]
            ·
            2 years ago

            In the second part of your writing you described a Contract worker..

            An Artists for me is a One Man Company , it Sells his Talent and therefore is the Monopolist of his Talent. If he has a Boss of course he is a Worker but a classic "Artist " is pretty solid in the petit Bourgouise Class..

            • Gamer_time [he/him]
              ·
              2 years ago

              But one of the Bourgeoisie class exploits others, the classic artist doesn't. :jesse-wtf:

              • ThomasMuentzner [he/him, comrade/them]
                ·
                2 years ago

                yeah .. so

                he owns his means of Production.

                he Sets the Price for his own Labour

                he is in no Autority Structure

                he is a Specialist whos labour is not easy to replace (until now)

                he has no Contract or Wage

                he is Petit Bourgoise

                      • ThomasMuentzner [he/him, comrade/them]
                        ·
                        2 years ago

                        Yeah

                        "The term is politico-economic and references historical materialism. It originally denoted a sub-stratum of the middle classes in the 18th and early-19th centuries. In the mid-19th century, the German economist Karl Marx and other Marxist theorists used the term petite bourgeoisie to identify the socio-economic stratum of the bourgeoisie that consists of small shopkeepers and self-employed artisans.[2][3][4] "

                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petite_bourgeoisie

                        Are we done now ?

                          • ThomasMuentzner [he/him, comrade/them]
                            ·
                            2 years ago

                            CONTRACT WORKERS ARE NOT ARTISANS ;

                            they have a CONCTRACT with their EMPLOYER , ABOUT HOW THEY WILL SPEND THEIR LABOUR .

                            They are SELLING THEIR LABOUR to their Contract Holder ..

                            Your Literally denying the Offical Definition ...

                              • ThomasMuentzner [he/him, comrade/them]
                                ·
                                2 years ago

                                You define everybody involved with ART as an ARTIST ... thats wrong in a Class Definition , please devide the Class definition from your classical "Job Categories"

                                The Artist is NOT in A Contrcat but is Producer! , Seller! and Profiteur! of his own Product. ---> Petit Bourgoise.

                                If he can not Sell his own Art on the Market , then hes just a Dude with a Hobby , no matter what he tells his Parents . If he has A Contract he is a Worker that calls himselfs "artist".

                                Class is defined by the Market Relations.

                                  • ThomasMuentzner [he/him, comrade/them]
                                    ·
                                    2 years ago

                                    yeah so ...

                                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petite_bourgeoisie

                                    So far artists have been (according to you) Petite bourgoise, bourgoise, boheme, artisans and contract workers

                                    Okay lets make it Clearer .. Sucessfull Artisans Are Petite Bourgoise up to Haute Bourgoise

                                    Unsuccessfull Artist will end up as Contract Workers... for the Petite Bourgoise or haute Bourgoise Artisan

                                    the Boheme is more of a Social Class / sphere the Succesfull ad Unsuccesfull artisans Mingle connecting both Speheres..

                                    these are 19th century definitions so dont get to worked up over it

                                    there are many definitions as there are Many speheres . like the Law Definition in Germany is afaik : Your an Artist if you have the "Gewerbeschein" and sold Art of more then 5000€ worth or something ..

                                    So i can not follow this hole "artist is artist because he makes Art"

                                    like yes hat is also right thats like "Generall Knowledge" Definition..

                                      • ThomasMuentzner [he/him, comrade/them]
                                        ·
                                        2 years ago

                                        Let me reitegrade again

                                        Artisans belong to the Petit-Bourgoise in Marxist Class Theory.

                                        that you call everything not on the Trees after the Count to 3 an "Artist" is your Problem and makes your hole conversation useless blabber ...

                                        Again even following your literal definition you’re wrong. The majority of artists WORKERS do not own the means of production, they do not set their own wages or hours, they do not exist outside of other hierarchies.

                                          • ThomasMuentzner [he/him, comrade/them]
                                            ·
                                            2 years ago

                                            nope

                                            i can not answer a question thats not asked ... i dont do "Discoussion on the Syle of Discussion" Meta Shit , but i think its Funny that you dont state the so important Question like ever.. then accuse me of not answering it I dont even think there is a Discussion going on to be Honest ..

                                            I informed you of an offical definition. And probably some things got lost in Translation .. But the Subject of the "Dissoussion" is settled. All of this Hostility following is more direected against the Messanger then he Message , and sure theres always potential to deliver it better ,.. "feel the Room" and all of that. But thats not really of Substance.

                                            Also there is a culturall differencee working here

                                            A - You search for the "Absolute" Definition, fitting all Speheres - Where i come from there is Diffrent Spehers necesscitating different Definitions.. So No Search for Absoluts.. "Boheme " serves the exactly the purpose of adressing the Problem of the "Artisan Definition" to be this inbeetween thing , that Artisans obviously are ..

                                            B - You Think I try to attack Artist .. Art in some kind of Chud way.. I got one comment with "Pat soc" ?, so I assume this is what creates this hostility .. ? I fucking lovee Art and Artist and all of that shit. How Boring and Gray would be the World without the Muses and their Messangers ?

                                            .. thats this very nasty thing with Anglosphere Culture ,there Konversation is not Subjet oriented but Person oriented, therefore the Goal is to Establish a Winner instead Wisdom. It happens in the Internet with th Anglossphere , I think even the Schools have debate Clubs and all Debates are allways framed after a Winner? , theres Never a "What new Wisdoms did we get" framing but a "Who Won ? " Framing , totally derailing a Konversation. Giant Psy Ops..

                                            So lets just settle it in the 2 Main Spheres

                                            1. Sphere The Wisdom aquired

                                            2. Sphere Who Won ?

                                            I am Deranged and all of the other Words , do the worst kind of Dissussion.. change definition.. all of that .. Yes yes .. Sorry I am very sorry for that.. please lets end it here.. take your Trophy and leave me to my ....

                    • DeleteriousDanforth [he/him]
                      ·
                      2 years ago

                      funny how this kind of dogmatism runs exactly counter to real material conditions. being a contract worker in 2022 means nothing more than not being eligible for healthcare, overtime, stock grants, etc

                      • ThomasMuentzner [he/him, comrade/them]
                        ·
                        2 years ago

                        its one of the indicators yes.. not the Single Indikator for me

                        ownership of the means to procude and ownership of the Product is pretty important as well

                          • Huldra [they/them, it/its]
                            ·
                            2 years ago

                            Oh my god this guy is on about fucking art again? Last time he was insisting that you couldnt understand modern art without having gone through a full college education and just kept going on about this fucking bullshit "oooh i bow to your superior education".

                          • ThomasMuentzner [he/him, comrade/them]
                            ·
                            2 years ago

                            just read up ..

                            ist im Allgemeinen eine Bezeichnung des wohlhabenden Bürgertums oder im Marxismus die Bezeichnung der herrschenden sozialen Klasse der Gesellschaft, die der Klasse des Proletariats gegenübersteht und manchmal auch zur Abgrenzung gegenüber der (künstlerischen) Bohème verwendet wird.

                            Im Gegensatz zur beherrschten und ausgebeuteten Klasse der Arbeiter, deren Angehörige nur ihre auf dem Arbeitsmarkt zu verkaufende Arbeitskraft besitzen, sind die Groß unfd Kleinbürger daher Eigentümer der entscheidenden Produktionsmittel (etwa Fabriken, Transportmittel, Bodenschätze) und können mit deren Hilfe – und durch die Ausbeutung der Arbeiter (just one Indicator not THE Indicator) – ihren Kapitalbesitz beständig vermehren.

                            https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourgeoisie

              • ThomasMuentzner [he/him, comrade/them]
                ·
                2 years ago

                Yeah , .. but not everybody has a Market for his Talent..

                An Artist that does not is therefore not an Artist. If Your Talent produces a Product that has Value in the Market.. How are you not the Master of your own Work ? your not a Worker your Petit Bourgouise ... Literally a Company ..

                ( One of the Best Companies , not gonna lie ) but your Not an Worker..

                  • ThomasMuentzner [he/him, comrade/them]
                    ·
                    2 years ago

                    (..) Dabei erfährt die Zugehörigkeit zur Bourgeoisie keine Beschränkung durch das Ausüben bestimmter Berufe oder die Verfügung über ein irgendwie geartetes Eigentum. Der Eintritt in die Bourgeoisie kann auch mittels eines Sprungbrettes oder aufgrund besonderer Strebsamkeit oder Talentiertheit erfolgen. Auch garantiert die Zugehörigkeit zur Klasse nicht den Verbleib in dieser. An dieser Stelle werden laut Wallerstein dann doch bestimmte Charaktereigenschaften für den Bourgeois maßgeblich, nämlich Cleverness, Härte und Fleiß. Denn das wichtigste Kriterium für den Klassenerhalt ist der Erfolg auf dem Markt.

                • Riffraffintheroom [none/use name]
                  ·
                  2 years ago

                  What in the fuck do you think "from each according to his ability to each according to his means" means? What do you think "ability" means in that context? This is one of the worst understandings of Marx, art and the idea of labour I've ever seen. Like mind-bogglingly wrong in every possible way.

                  • ThomasMuentzner [he/him, comrade/them]
                    ·
                    2 years ago

                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petite_bourgeoisie

                    Theorists used the term petite bourgeoisie to identify the socio-economic stratum of the bourgeoisie that consists of small shopkeepers and self-employed artisans.[2][3][4]

      • Esoteir [he/him]
        ·
        2 years ago

        red scare-tier blue collar worker fetishism backed by zero theory

      • Presents [none/use name]
        ·
        2 years ago

        Because the artistic community has a long history of treating the little guy with contempt. Still waiting for anyone to show me where in the artistic community a place of sympathy and kindness for the working class exists. Who is more noble, the artist, or the plumber? The question answers itself, doesn't it?

    • save_vs_death [they/them]
      ·
      2 years ago

      artists are working class because they have to sell their labour power in order to access the essentials of life

      they do not deserve better conditions because of any inherent sympathy, destitution, prostration, humility and so on, but because perpetuating this mode of production fucks us all of us over

      refusing to stand with any group of the working class when it matters is individualized brain worms, i don't want you to like them, i want you to have solidarity, this tit for tat bullshit won't get you anywhere

    • The_Walkening [none/use name]
      ·
      2 years ago

      Yeah it has everything to do with art and individual artists and nothing to do with the market for art and who buys it.