It is not enough to counter fascism militarily, as Antifa does, though that is important. To truly defeat fascism, we must win over a substantial segment of the social strata that make up its mass base.
This article keeps mentioning that the "left" relies too much on establishment liberal society to push agendas, and that alienates those who are drawn to fascism. What isn't mentioned is the social base for fascism comprise of members of that liberal order, like small business owners or people embedded in imperialist domination, like cops or feds.
I've mentioned this around, but American fascism doesn't comprise the same people as when Germany went fascist. Our average fascists come in two varieties: A white 55 year old pool supply shop owner who is terribly overweight and likes to trigger the libs, the other type being a completely nuts teenager who has melted their brain on 4chan.
Germany's social base were WW1 vets and street gangs. They were already militant before getting organized for fascism specifically, so who exactly are we supposed to win over?
We're supposed to win over the boomer warehouse owner who refused to hire immigrants? We're supposed to win over Twitch streamers with names like "Based Polish Nationalist"? Who exactly are we trying to win over here? Because the ones drawn to fascism at this point are already deep within it. They're the tip of the spear who are attempting to manifest fascism into practice, they're not some confused wayward members of the masses. They know what fascism is and why they'd want it
Maybe I'm cynical. I know some comrades here who used to identify as fascists before they got their head on straight, but that seems so rare and exceptional.
Our average fascists come in two varieties: A white 55 year old pool supply shop owner who is terribly overweight and likes to trigger the libs, the other type being a completely nuts teenager who has melted their brain on 4chan.
There aren't enough of these folks (even measuring these categories generously) to account for all the support Trump had. I'd say there are at least two additional sizeable groups:
~55-year-old white wage earners who see no prospects for the retirement they expected, and think attacking vulnerable groups is a way out. Probably some mix of believing Those People took their jobs and "even if I'm poor, I'll be poor and white."
Millenial-aged petite bourgeois (mostly PMC types) who are upwardly mobile, but are terrified that they'll end up like the above group. These are folks who have a retirement portfolio and think Democrats want to give it to the poor.
As for the prospects of winning any of these people over, the pool supply store guy is probably a lost cause, the teenager at least has a chance of growing and changing, the ~55-year-old white wage earner might be at least neutralized with material benefits like universal healthcare, and the millenials might come around if they fall out of the petite bourgeois or at least realize how precarious their situation is.
You're right in everything you said. I think I wasn't including all Trump voters and supporters as ideological fascists, but you'd probably correct in saying they're prone to becoming fascists. Most people vote for congress and president in ways that don't necessarily match what they want. Like my parents voted for Trump under the impression Trump wanted to implement universal healthcare and he wasn't serious about all the hatred of immigrants. Complete goofballs basically.
I haven't tried to sway people politically much in my life, but I have tried to organize unions. The conservatives there are quickly won over by material interests, and if they aren't, they're easily told to shut up and shamed into going along with the group. That's been how I've won them over, massive social pressure backed up by numbers
That's just a different way to say "they passively skim off the surplus value of other people's labor".
You can't have everyone building up savings in a monetary system, nor can everyone have capital gains. One person's capital gains are another person's lost value, and if you try to stretch how many people fit into the creditor category, you get inflation and just end up diluting the whole thing.
For both ideological and material reasons, this group is heavily invested in capitalism, and you'd need to break down both of these reasons to win them over.
You can’t have everyone building up savings in a monetary system, nor can everyone have capital gains. One person’s capital gains are another person’s lost value
:big-bill: Every dollar someone earns without working, is a dollar someone worked for and didn't get
More than just that, all currencies (and most money-commodities) derive their utility directly from their scarcity. If they become less scarce, all of a sudden you can't trade in them quite as well.
I guess that's something at least, but I don't know how effective that is long term. As much as twitch streamers are a vehicle for spreading our propaganda, at the end of the day they're professionals doing a job and people gaining their political outlook from twitch streams just strike me as politically fickle
It was also bread bakers looking at nearby jewish owned shop/high interest rates from banks killing them over. Vets and streetgangs were muscles, but not whole.
Think small shop owners/workers (rooftop koreans/guy who called on the george floyd) (og petit bourgeoisie, not usual bourgeoisie with tiny businesses, like restaurant owners)
The Nazis specifically were founded (as the DAP) as a mechanism for the German right to pull working class support from the organized left. Countering that project, and any other fascist attempt to sway people who aren't materially aligned with them, is fine. Neutralizing that teenager's fascination with fascism, or directing that disaffection somewhere else, probably does some small party to counter the stochastic terror strategy.
Playing for their actual reactionary base though? The major parties of the western 'left' have been trying to create a big tent that acquiesces to the material interests of those fuckers for the last 30 years. That third way strategy has had its time, and all it's done is ensure that neoliberalism isn't even slowed down by elections any more.
This article keeps mentioning that the "left" relies too much on establishment liberal society to push agendas, and that alienates those who are drawn to fascism. What isn't mentioned is the social base for fascism comprise of members of that liberal order, like small business owners or people embedded in imperialist domination, like cops or feds.
I've mentioned this around, but American fascism doesn't comprise the same people as when Germany went fascist. Our average fascists come in two varieties: A white 55 year old pool supply shop owner who is terribly overweight and likes to trigger the libs, the other type being a completely nuts teenager who has melted their brain on 4chan.
Germany's social base were WW1 vets and street gangs. They were already militant before getting organized for fascism specifically, so who exactly are we supposed to win over?
We're supposed to win over the boomer warehouse owner who refused to hire immigrants? We're supposed to win over Twitch streamers with names like "Based Polish Nationalist"? Who exactly are we trying to win over here? Because the ones drawn to fascism at this point are already deep within it. They're the tip of the spear who are attempting to manifest fascism into practice, they're not some confused wayward members of the masses. They know what fascism is and why they'd want it
Maybe I'm cynical. I know some comrades here who used to identify as fascists before they got their head on straight, but that seems so rare and exceptional.
There aren't enough of these folks (even measuring these categories generously) to account for all the support Trump had. I'd say there are at least two additional sizeable groups:
As for the prospects of winning any of these people over, the pool supply store guy is probably a lost cause, the teenager at least has a chance of growing and changing, the ~55-year-old white wage earner might be at least neutralized with material benefits like universal healthcare, and the millenials might come around if they fall out of the petite bourgeois or at least realize how precarious their situation is.
You're right in everything you said. I think I wasn't including all Trump voters and supporters as ideological fascists, but you'd probably correct in saying they're prone to becoming fascists. Most people vote for congress and president in ways that don't necessarily match what they want. Like my parents voted for Trump under the impression Trump wanted to implement universal healthcare and he wasn't serious about all the hatred of immigrants. Complete goofballs basically.
I haven't tried to sway people politically much in my life, but I have tried to organize unions. The conservatives there are quickly won over by material interests, and if they aren't, they're easily told to shut up and shamed into going along with the group. That's been how I've won them over, massive social pressure backed up by numbers
That's just a different way to say "they passively skim off the surplus value of other people's labor".
You can't have everyone building up savings in a monetary system, nor can everyone have capital gains. One person's capital gains are another person's lost value, and if you try to stretch how many people fit into the creditor category, you get inflation and just end up diluting the whole thing.
For both ideological and material reasons, this group is heavily invested in capitalism, and you'd need to break down both of these reasons to win them over.
:big-bill: Every dollar someone earns without working, is a dollar someone worked for and didn't get
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Bill Bill fucking slaps for these quick and easily digestible quotes
More than just that, all currencies (and most money-commodities) derive their utility directly from their scarcity. If they become less scarce, all of a sudden you can't trade in them quite as well.
I think it's people like :hasan-ok-dude: , who can culture a viewership that is sympathetic to our causes, that are the key
I guess that's something at least, but I don't know how effective that is long term. As much as twitch streamers are a vehicle for spreading our propaganda, at the end of the day they're professionals doing a job and people gaining their political outlook from twitch streams just strike me as politically fickle
deleted by creator
It was also bread bakers looking at nearby jewish owned shop/high interest rates from banks killing them over. Vets and streetgangs were muscles, but not whole.
Think small shop owners/workers (rooftop koreans/guy who called on the george floyd) (og petit bourgeoisie, not usual bourgeoisie with tiny businesses, like restaurant owners)
The Nazis specifically were founded (as the DAP) as a mechanism for the German right to pull working class support from the organized left. Countering that project, and any other fascist attempt to sway people who aren't materially aligned with them, is fine. Neutralizing that teenager's fascination with fascism, or directing that disaffection somewhere else, probably does some small party to counter the stochastic terror strategy.
Playing for their actual reactionary base though? The major parties of the western 'left' have been trying to create a big tent that acquiesces to the material interests of those fuckers for the last 30 years. That third way strategy has had its time, and all it's done is ensure that neoliberalism isn't even slowed down by elections any more.