Well right now the solution has been to call it free speech and let capital figure it out. It’s not a solution, but I’ll take it over trusting the government to decide what people can and can’t say.
So your solution is to hide it behind a fake veneer of capital handling it and then not actually solve it because you are afraid of the government? Brilliant.
Pretty sure I explicitly said it wasn’t a solution, simply that I preferred free speech in whatever limited way it truly exists to allowing the government to determine what I can and can’t say. You’re welcome to disagree but if all you are going to do is reword what I said into more strawmen then I don’t see much of a point in keeping this dialogue going.
I disagree on this because frankly this is liberal ideology at work, free speech isnt worth that much if it means letting fascists roam free, playing whack a mole with the dumb ones that decide to stab a minority for fun and then end up on the edge of being couped once they consolidate and organize for real. Free speech isnt worth all that much if you are enshrining it as sacred at the cost of not being capable of preventing and actually uprooting reactionary ideology from your society.
lol its fine, you can call this liberalism if you want, i dont mind. i mean, its a statement of fact, right? nothing more liberal than free speech. i prefer that to giving the government more power than i can trust them with. i realized earlier this month that im just not a communist because of compromises like this that im not willing to make. id rather take the whack a mole approach for the freaks and focus on community education for the general public. then again, im not white and deal with being profiled constantly anyway, so maybe my experience with the government is different than other people here.
The issue is because there is fundamentally no long term solution in what you are talking about because you throw away any such notions that a government that stops fascism may also overstep its bounds, but because it refuses to stop fascism it essentially dooms itself to a cycle of fascism rising up and trying to overthrow the whole thing, in the long run all but guaranteeing that at some point fascists will control the government and for sure abuse power and destroy free speech while persecuting all manner of minorities.
Its amazingly pure idealism in that the abstract right of free speech is so sacred that bending or infringing on it to ensure that what is left of it as well as ensuring that people wont fall victim to fascism, is unacceptable compared to allowing fascism to fester and grow while basically just performatively taking care of tiny individuals to lull everyone into security that you again, all but guarantee that people will be caught off guard when the conditions arrive for a fascist coup attempt and you have to throw everything previous to the wind anyways if you are to defeat fascism.
But thats pure speculation, theres a risk of that possibility, but this absolute refusal to compromise free speech in the slightest is guaranteed to let groups who want to harm everyone thats not like them the opportunity to grow and gain some degree of power and influence and to murder people, thats a goddamn guarantee.
well first, its not speculation, we've seen it happen. second, i dont believe you need to make something illegal for people to know that its bad and I also dont think making something illegal is a solution if ones goal is prevention. I think it makes more sense to deal with fascism by preventing the economic conditions that allow it to find a home, not by telling people what they are and arent allowed to say.
Whats the alternative then? Non-hierarchical committees do it? We leave it all alone and just do whack a mole anytime it goes violent?
Well right now the solution has been to call it free speech and let capital figure it out. It’s not a solution, but I’ll take it over trusting the government to decide what people can and can’t say.
So your solution is to hide it behind a fake veneer of capital handling it and then not actually solve it because you are afraid of the government? Brilliant.
Pretty sure I explicitly said it wasn’t a solution, simply that I preferred free speech in whatever limited way it truly exists to allowing the government to determine what I can and can’t say. You’re welcome to disagree but if all you are going to do is reword what I said into more strawmen then I don’t see much of a point in keeping this dialogue going.
Edit: clarified
I disagree on this because frankly this is liberal ideology at work, free speech isnt worth that much if it means letting fascists roam free, playing whack a mole with the dumb ones that decide to stab a minority for fun and then end up on the edge of being couped once they consolidate and organize for real. Free speech isnt worth all that much if you are enshrining it as sacred at the cost of not being capable of preventing and actually uprooting reactionary ideology from your society.
lol its fine, you can call this liberalism if you want, i dont mind. i mean, its a statement of fact, right? nothing more liberal than free speech. i prefer that to giving the government more power than i can trust them with. i realized earlier this month that im just not a communist because of compromises like this that im not willing to make. id rather take the whack a mole approach for the freaks and focus on community education for the general public. then again, im not white and deal with being profiled constantly anyway, so maybe my experience with the government is different than other people here.
The issue is because there is fundamentally no long term solution in what you are talking about because you throw away any such notions that a government that stops fascism may also overstep its bounds, but because it refuses to stop fascism it essentially dooms itself to a cycle of fascism rising up and trying to overthrow the whole thing, in the long run all but guaranteeing that at some point fascists will control the government and for sure abuse power and destroy free speech while persecuting all manner of minorities.
Its amazingly pure idealism in that the abstract right of free speech is so sacred that bending or infringing on it to ensure that what is left of it as well as ensuring that people wont fall victim to fascism, is unacceptable compared to allowing fascism to fester and grow while basically just performatively taking care of tiny individuals to lull everyone into security that you again, all but guarantee that people will be caught off guard when the conditions arrive for a fascist coup attempt and you have to throw everything previous to the wind anyways if you are to defeat fascism.
i would argue a system where the government is allowed to decide what i can or cant say will inevitably lead to the same place.
But thats pure speculation, theres a risk of that possibility, but this absolute refusal to compromise free speech in the slightest is guaranteed to let groups who want to harm everyone thats not like them the opportunity to grow and gain some degree of power and influence and to murder people, thats a goddamn guarantee.
well first, its not speculation, we've seen it happen. second, i dont believe you need to make something illegal for people to know that its bad and I also dont think making something illegal is a solution if ones goal is prevention. I think it makes more sense to deal with fascism by preventing the economic conditions that allow it to find a home, not by telling people what they are and arent allowed to say.