unless their right of internal self determination is compromised
Oh wait what’s that?
Lmao that’s what happened after the Ukrainian nationalists starting arming Nazi militias and banned their political parties you clown.
Banning their political parties and denying them the right to use their own language or practice their own religion or have their own political representation is called denying them their right to internal self determination.
Yeah banning pro Russian parties after Russia invaded them? Kinda a no brainer. + Russia was arming separatists first you chung mungus. I noticed you didn't answer my question
Are you of the opinion that the people of chechnia wanted to be a part of Russia? Those guys full on declared independence & the independence leader got 90% of the vote
I'm a realist because even though it's not morally right I understand that on the international stage might makes right. I don't agree with it but authoritarian countries with strong armies can coerce weaker countries & entities into capitulating (check out findlandization). If you were knowledgeable you'd know that no other countries recognized chechen independence either, perhaps because the ruskies declared the elections illegal the day before they happened... Reminds of another recent situation huh?
It's okay to feel conflicted those contradictions can allow you to analyze why you held certain beliefs to begin with and is the beginning to a more complex understanding of events.
Im glad you acknowledge that Ukraine and the west does not have a moral leg to stand on but I hope you eventually take the next step and recognize that means the hundreds of thousands of dead and permanently injured Ukrainians and Russians makes this a moral travesty and a crime against humanity.
Recognizing the moral right lies with the separatists but choosing to support the use of military force against them because “fuck Russia” makes you the bad guy.
Lol @ Russia apologists trying to defend Russias invasion and genocide of the Ukrainian people + spouting easily debunkable talking points. Can't wait until I get you hear to spill the same watered down trash when the ruskies invade Poland for the 8th time this century.
Since you like relying on evidence and moral bases so much, what is your evidence Russia is committing a genocide in Ukraine? Reminder: a genocide has to be explicit. Killing soldiers of a country you're at war with does not meet the standard to be killed genocide.
Mass graves do not fit in the criteria set by the UN for genocide.
Secondly Bucha was an Azov crime. The mayor just a few days before Ukraine rolled into the city did not mention anything about a killing of civilians. There were recordings made just a few days before they suddenly "found" all the civilians where the streets were completely empty with no bodies.
For Izium there's videos of Russian troops burying people properly and even Ukrainian POWs witnessing the burials. They were likely set up in a mass grave by Ukraine to farm atrocity propaganda.
Oh so now it doen't meet your criteria dude. Typical tankie I bet u don't consider the holodomor a genocide either. You talk about morals and then say killing civilians ain't a crime. Such a lack of self awareness... How do you even breathe.
Typical tankie I bet u don't consider the holodomor a genocide either.
The mainstream position among liberal historians (and not pop historians or politicians) is indeed that the famine was not a genocide. Some reading on that topic: https://www.villagevoice.com/in-search-of-a-soviet-holocaust/
The holodomor is a lie created by nazis to downplay the actual genocide of the Holocaust, by spewing this bullshit your engaging in a form of Holocaust denial
China liberating Tibet from a theocracy built on a foundation of slavery and run by pedophiles wasn't a genocide either
All of your boy who cried Adolf garbage is just making it easier for actual fascists and nazis to maintain or regain power and you'll somehow alway find an excuse to support them
I don't know how fascists like you function, don't care either
"By general consensus, Stalin was partially responsible." That author would've been executed or gulaged in the ussr since it was a crime to mention the holodomor & blame the authorities. I bet to you that sounds exactly like how a responsible government would respond to criticism.
I ain't fash but you can believe whatever delusions you want. Russia is committing war crimes and committed genocide in the past. And instead you bend over backwards to suck putin's fat dick and engage in revisionist history so you can believe in an ideal of something that never existed. What a shocker... You calling someone who disagrees with you to be a Nazi, I expected you to at least call me a liberal first lol.
Lol, u pretending to be so moral that you hide behind the strictest definitions of the word genocide. If committing hundreds to 30,000 war crimes isn't bad enough for you to take seriously then yeah I'm guilty of a bit of hyperbole, at least I'm not a genocide denier like you clearly are. The UN takes its sweet time to name atrocities with "genocide" but changing that definition doesn't make the innocent in those mass graves killed by Russian troops any more alive.
I'm using the UN definition of genocide which most states have agreed to. Earlier you said that most states did not recognize the referenda held in the Donbass so they didn't count. You're projecting so much we could watch a movie with the whole 'grad on your forehead bro, have some academic rigour if you're gonna try arguing.
The only thing you contested is that it's not considered a genocide & after which I said I was guilty of hyperbole. But I noticed how you didn't dispute the fact that mass graves show up everywhere the Russian army occupied.
How you can support such barbarity while it's ongoing is past my capabilities to understand, you should teach classes about how to live in denial.
Yeah every atrocity just so happens to be a trick or a plot against the Soviets. Russians have been downplaying every atrocity since they axed the romanovs. I put people like you right next to Holocaust deniers because there's not a piece of evidence that you won't say is faked because you want so desprately to to believe in something that never existed. You'll believe every shred of anti West propaganda .Pathetic. Someday you might realize that every world power commits mass murder now & again but it's not going to be today.
if you actually knew anything about Holocaust denialism you wouldn't even make this comparison because you'd have realized how stupid and uninformed you'd sound. Alas, you are just one more white liberal who thinks their 3 years of high school prepared them to know everything there is to know about the world.
It's about this time that you finally get sweet release and earn your ban, because what you're doing is actual Holocaust denial, trying to downplay it by comparing it to an event that was nothing like it in scope, size, and amount of deaths.
Remember the Molotov ribbentrop pact? Or that time after WWI? You've got a super selective memory. I give you points for almost directly quoting your god emperor putin on that one.
You know France and England signed some pacts with the Nazis is the lead up to the Soviets making a deal with the devil, right? And the Soviets knew the nazis were always going to invade them, because they literally just knew about what the Nazis were publicly stating they'd like to do.
I'm assuming you're talking about the Munich pact? Yeah it might've been a mistake but the allies needed time to build up. I suspect that the soviets would've invaded Germany if they hadn't been attacked first.
I'm assuming you're talking about the Munich pact? Yeah it might've been a mistake but the allies needed time to build up.
In order to attack Germany, right?
I suspect that the soviets would've invaded Germany if they hadn't been attacked first.
This is good.
It seems like all the major allied powers wanted to build up to attack Germany. The only difference was the Soviets saw fascism as an existential threat and the other major allied powers saw them as potential competition.
No, they didn't, unlike the Soviets who were dramatically less developed on account of starting from a war-torn semi-feudal backwater.
I suspect that the soviets would've invaded Germany if they hadn't been attacked first.
What's your point in even mentioning this? To demonstrate that you know that they weren't allies? Invading Nazi Germany is a good thing to do! Especially in the case of a Slavic country that would be subjected to genocide (as the USSR, like Poland, historically was) if they just waited for the Nazis to invade!
Yup, no one's gonna argue that the Soviets can't make a lot of tanks. What's my point in saying that? Just shooting the shit, lol anything I say will be taken out of context and used as justification that I'm a Nazi. So good on you for being another rube.
You mean the areas populated by Belorussians and Ukrainians that was conquered by Poland from Russia in the war of 1922 when Poland took advantage of the civil war to seize a big chunk of Belorussian and ukraine and taken back by Russia when the polish state collapsed following the Nazi invasion of Poland?
None of the Russian parts of the MR pact were populated by mostly polish people, with the exception of Lviv which is still part of Ukraine today.
It’s a selective reading of history to call Belorussians and Ukrainians the rightful property of Poland especially in light of the brutal Polonization campaign they suffered, being reduced to serfdom by Polish invaders.
As it happens I’d actually support restoring that part to Poland, Lviv, and also the Hungarian bit of Ukraine to Hungary since both of those ethnic minorities, along with the ethnic Greek minority, have all been suffering a lot under the rule of the Ukrainian nationalists and have also faced restrictions on their internal self determination such as language rights being suppressed or in the case of the Greek minority also religious persecution.
Ahh considering Poland didn't exist until after WW1 & both sides disregarded the curzon line it's hard to say where Polands eastern border should've been but I do agree that they def pushed too far east. I don't understand your reference to serfdom. I thought that was abolished in the 18th century.
You’re really going to argue the polinization campaign in Belorussia and Ukraine in the 1920s and 30s was a good thing? A moral gray area?
Jesus fucking Christ.
Hopefully you’re a teenager who doesn’t know what you’re talking about because if you do then you need to eat a brick if you’re really going to take that line, and there are plenty of people alive in both belorussia and Ukraine today who would feed it to you if they heard you saying that including the Ukrainian nationalists and Nazi gangs you are here supporting.
One of the more brutal events of the 20th century that is only overlooked due to the fact that Poland soon suffered worse evils than those Poland inflicted on the Ukrainians and Belorussians at the hands of the Nazis - until the Soviets kicked the Nazis out.
Edit: actually given your world view includes supporting the campaign of Ukrainization and the violent assimilationist policies directed at the ethnic minorities in Ukraine, you have form here. It seems you’re actually very comfortable with violence being used against ethnic minorities given how you’re here supporting multiple instances of it.
But honestly, and I am truly being straight with you here, I think the more likely truth is you’re a bit of a dumbass who doesn’t know your history and you don’t actually realize what you’re supporting here but your ego won’t let you let go.
It’s not well covered in English language history which basically just skips over the fact poland was a viciously fascist state in the 1930s but it does get covered by Timothy Snyder, although he has a pretty firmly anti-Russian slant through his work.
You can see a lot of the works that cover it are in Polish, Ukrainian and Russian
60-70 hangings a day to fight “guerrillas”, floggings and torture to control the population, the Belorussians not having access to the education system, and the use of concentration camps to hold political activists, and trade unionists. Language rights were suppressed and the local population were forcibly “Polonized” / assimilated while also being held in an oppressed state as a cheap labor force for Polish settlers who were given the land as an agricultural fiefdom no different in any sense from the lebensraum concept - especially during the Polish fascist period of the mid to late 1930s.
Today the western part of Belorussia is still less industrialized than the east and the divide clearly falls along the line of polish occupation and colonial-settlement.
Ironically it was the atrocious treatment of the Belorussian minority that Hitler pointed at when claiming the German minority in Poland needed to be “rescued” - although the German minority were actually not treated badly.
You Redditors just love using this term, but invasion and genocide are not actually synonymous. You can call Putin apathetic to civilian casualties, but that's not the same as genocide. Of course Ukrainian jingoists love this kind of language because accusing Russia of genocide has been in the playbook for quite a while now
Hey look here's the news source (village voice) you posted talking about what they're doing in Ukraine right now. Lol nice one
https://www.villagevoice.com/russias-crimes-in-ukraine-against-humanity-and-nature/
"By general consensus, Stalin was partially responsible." That author would've been executed or gulaged in the ussr since it was a crime to mention the holodomor & blame the authorities. I bet to you that sounds exactly like how a responsible government would respond to criticism.
Layers of deflection to avoid just reading a fucking article. No, mentioning the famine was not a crime and you are literally just making that up because you think it fits the vibe of things.
Why are you so unwilling to contend with the actual content of the article?
Even if Russians killed every Ukrainian there'd still be dummies like u in this thread claiming no genocide happened & that it was their fault for resisting.
Oh wait what’s that?
Lmao that’s what happened after the Ukrainian nationalists starting arming Nazi militias and banned their political parties you clown.
Banning their political parties and denying them the right to use their own language or practice their own religion or have their own political representation is called denying them their right to internal self determination.
Yeah banning pro Russian parties after Russia invaded them? Kinda a no brainer. + Russia was arming separatists first you chung mungus. I noticed you didn't answer my question
Are you of the opinion that the people of chechnia wanted to be a part of Russia? Those guys full on declared independence & the independence leader got 90% of the vote
You: let’s talk about something else because I’m feeling really fucking stupid right now
I guess you’re saying you fully support Putin’s crackdown on Grozny then right?
Get your deflecting moronic ass out of here and have a think about what you are actually supporting right now and today in Ukraine.
Because you’re not supporting democracy and freedom. Not at all.
I'm a realist because even though it's not morally right I understand that on the international stage might makes right. I don't agree with it but authoritarian countries with strong armies can coerce weaker countries & entities into capitulating (check out findlandization). If you were knowledgeable you'd know that no other countries recognized chechen independence either, perhaps because the ruskies declared the elections illegal the day before they happened... Reminds of another recent situation huh? It's okay to feel conflicted those contradictions can allow you to analyze why you held certain beliefs to begin with and is the beginning to a more complex understanding of events.
Im glad you acknowledge that Ukraine and the west does not have a moral leg to stand on but I hope you eventually take the next step and recognize that means the hundreds of thousands of dead and permanently injured Ukrainians and Russians makes this a moral travesty and a crime against humanity.
Recognizing the moral right lies with the separatists but choosing to support the use of military force against them because “fuck Russia” makes you the bad guy.
Lol @ Russia apologists trying to defend Russias invasion and genocide of the Ukrainian people + spouting easily debunkable talking points. Can't wait until I get you hear to spill the same watered down trash when the ruskies invade Poland for the 8th time this century.
I wish they'd invade your house. Not your country, just your house specifically.
Cool
Since you like relying on evidence and moral bases so much, what is your evidence Russia is committing a genocide in Ukraine? Reminder: a genocide has to be explicit. Killing soldiers of a country you're at war with does not meet the standard to be killed genocide.
https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-kyiv-0aced874ccf203a5219ad37c2ed3f636
You want more? I can probably find a few more atrocities. Ope found another one
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/16/ukraine-mass-grave-with-440-bodies-discovered-in-recaptured-izium-says-police-chief
Seriously... It's not hard to find this stuff, your ignorance is willing.
Mass graves do not fit in the criteria set by the UN for genocide.
Secondly Bucha was an Azov crime. The mayor just a few days before Ukraine rolled into the city did not mention anything about a killing of civilians. There were recordings made just a few days before they suddenly "found" all the civilians where the streets were completely empty with no bodies.
For Izium there's videos of Russian troops burying people properly and even Ukrainian POWs witnessing the burials. They were likely set up in a mass grave by Ukraine to farm atrocity propaganda.
Oh so now it doen't meet your criteria dude. Typical tankie I bet u don't consider the holodomor a genocide either. You talk about morals and then say killing civilians ain't a crime. Such a lack of self awareness... How do you even breathe.
The mainstream position among liberal historians (and not pop historians or politicians) is indeed that the famine was not a genocide. Some reading on that topic: https://www.villagevoice.com/in-search-of-a-soviet-holocaust/
The holodomor is a lie created by nazis to downplay the actual genocide of the Holocaust, by spewing this bullshit your engaging in a form of Holocaust denial
China liberating Tibet from a theocracy built on a foundation of slavery and run by pedophiles wasn't a genocide either
All of your boy who cried Adolf garbage is just making it easier for actual fascists and nazis to maintain or regain power and you'll somehow alway find an excuse to support them
I don't know how fascists like you function, don't care either
"By general consensus, Stalin was partially responsible." That author would've been executed or gulaged in the ussr since it was a crime to mention the holodomor & blame the authorities. I bet to you that sounds exactly like how a responsible government would respond to criticism.
I ain't fash but you can believe whatever delusions you want. Russia is committing war crimes and committed genocide in the past. And instead you bend over backwards to suck putin's fat dick and engage in revisionist history so you can believe in an ideal of something that never existed. What a shocker... You calling someone who disagrees with you to be a Nazi, I expected you to at least call me a liberal first lol.
Where in the UN definition for genocide do mass graves count as genocide?
Lol, u pretending to be so moral that you hide behind the strictest definitions of the word genocide. If committing hundreds to 30,000 war crimes isn't bad enough for you to take seriously then yeah I'm guilty of a bit of hyperbole, at least I'm not a genocide denier like you clearly are. The UN takes its sweet time to name atrocities with "genocide" but changing that definition doesn't make the innocent in those mass graves killed by Russian troops any more alive.
I'm using the UN definition of genocide which most states have agreed to. Earlier you said that most states did not recognize the referenda held in the Donbass so they didn't count. You're projecting so much we could watch a movie with the whole 'grad on your forehead bro, have some academic rigour if you're gonna try arguing.
The only thing you contested is that it's not considered a genocide & after which I said I was guilty of hyperbole. But I noticed how you didn't dispute the fact that mass graves show up everywhere the Russian army occupied. How you can support such barbarity while it's ongoing is past my capabilities to understand, you should teach classes about how to live in denial.
I disputed them in my earlier comment.
Honestly it's for comments like this that we don't ban you, you're very entertaining in a certain way.
Yeah every atrocity just so happens to be a trick or a plot against the Soviets. Russians have been downplaying every atrocity since they axed the romanovs. I put people like you right next to Holocaust deniers because there's not a piece of evidence that you won't say is faked because you want so desprately to to believe in something that never existed. You'll believe every shred of anti West propaganda .Pathetic. Someday you might realize that every world power commits mass murder now & again but it's not going to be today.
if you actually knew anything about Holocaust denialism you wouldn't even make this comparison because you'd have realized how stupid and uninformed you'd sound. Alas, you are just one more white liberal who thinks their 3 years of high school prepared them to know everything there is to know about the world.
It's about this time that you finally get sweet release and earn your ban, because what you're doing is actual Holocaust denial, trying to downplay it by comparing it to an event that was nothing like it in scope, size, and amount of deaths.
Of course we don't consider the holomodor a genocide because its nazi propaganda
You mean when the USSR pushed the Nazis out of Poland and liberated Auswitch is that the event you’re talking about?
Remember the Molotov ribbentrop pact? Or that time after WWI? You've got a super selective memory. I give you points for almost directly quoting your god emperor putin on that one.
Liberals will never forgive the USSR for not letting the Nazis just have Poland.
You know France and England signed some pacts with the Nazis is the lead up to the Soviets making a deal with the devil, right? And the Soviets knew the nazis were always going to invade them, because they literally just knew about what the Nazis were publicly stating they'd like to do.
I'm assuming you're talking about the Munich pact? Yeah it might've been a mistake but the allies needed time to build up. I suspect that the soviets would've invaded Germany if they hadn't been attacked first.
In order to attack Germany, right?
This is good.
It seems like all the major allied powers wanted to build up to attack Germany. The only difference was the Soviets saw fascism as an existential threat and the other major allied powers saw them as potential competition.
No, they didn't, unlike the Soviets who were dramatically less developed on account of starting from a war-torn semi-feudal backwater.
What's your point in even mentioning this? To demonstrate that you know that they weren't allies? Invading Nazi Germany is a good thing to do! Especially in the case of a Slavic country that would be subjected to genocide (as the USSR, like Poland, historically was) if they just waited for the Nazis to invade!
Yup, no one's gonna argue that the Soviets can't make a lot of tanks. What's my point in saying that? Just shooting the shit, lol anything I say will be taken out of context and used as justification that I'm a Nazi. So good on you for being another rube.
I'm a rube for being confused by an aside?
Ur a rube for calling me a Nazi, at least call me a neoliberal or Western spy first. But no u gotta jump right to Nazi first.
I never called you a Nazi
Ahhh ur right my b. It was the other guy.
You mean the areas populated by Belorussians and Ukrainians that was conquered by Poland from Russia in the war of 1922 when Poland took advantage of the civil war to seize a big chunk of Belorussian and ukraine and taken back by Russia when the polish state collapsed following the Nazi invasion of Poland?
None of the Russian parts of the MR pact were populated by mostly polish people, with the exception of Lviv which is still part of Ukraine today.
It’s a selective reading of history to call Belorussians and Ukrainians the rightful property of Poland especially in light of the brutal Polonization campaign they suffered, being reduced to serfdom by Polish invaders.
As it happens I’d actually support restoring that part to Poland, Lviv, and also the Hungarian bit of Ukraine to Hungary since both of those ethnic minorities, along with the ethnic Greek minority, have all been suffering a lot under the rule of the Ukrainian nationalists and have also faced restrictions on their internal self determination such as language rights being suppressed or in the case of the Greek minority also religious persecution.
Ahh considering Poland didn't exist until after WW1 & both sides disregarded the curzon line it's hard to say where Polands eastern border should've been but I do agree that they def pushed too far east. I don't understand your reference to serfdom. I thought that was abolished in the 18th century.
You’re really going to argue the polinization campaign in Belorussia and Ukraine in the 1920s and 30s was a good thing? A moral gray area?
Jesus fucking Christ.
Hopefully you’re a teenager who doesn’t know what you’re talking about because if you do then you need to eat a brick if you’re really going to take that line, and there are plenty of people alive in both belorussia and Ukraine today who would feed it to you if they heard you saying that including the Ukrainian nationalists and Nazi gangs you are here supporting.
One of the more brutal events of the 20th century that is only overlooked due to the fact that Poland soon suffered worse evils than those Poland inflicted on the Ukrainians and Belorussians at the hands of the Nazis - until the Soviets kicked the Nazis out.
Edit: actually given your world view includes supporting the campaign of Ukrainization and the violent assimilationist policies directed at the ethnic minorities in Ukraine, you have form here. It seems you’re actually very comfortable with violence being used against ethnic minorities given how you’re here supporting multiple instances of it.
But honestly, and I am truly being straight with you here, I think the more likely truth is you’re a bit of a dumbass who doesn’t know your history and you don’t actually realize what you’re supporting here but your ego won’t let you let go.
Where could one read more about this?
It’s not well covered in English language history which basically just skips over the fact poland was a viciously fascist state in the 1930s but it does get covered by Timothy Snyder, although he has a pretty firmly anti-Russian slant through his work.
You can see a lot of the works that cover it are in Polish, Ukrainian and Russian
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belarusian_minority_in_Poland
60-70 hangings a day to fight “guerrillas”, floggings and torture to control the population, the Belorussians not having access to the education system, and the use of concentration camps to hold political activists, and trade unionists. Language rights were suppressed and the local population were forcibly “Polonized” / assimilated while also being held in an oppressed state as a cheap labor force for Polish settlers who were given the land as an agricultural fiefdom no different in any sense from the lebensraum concept - especially during the Polish fascist period of the mid to late 1930s.
Today the western part of Belorussia is still less industrialized than the east and the divide clearly falls along the line of polish occupation and colonial-settlement.
Ironically it was the atrocious treatment of the Belorussian minority that Hitler pointed at when claiming the German minority in Poland needed to be “rescued” - although the German minority were actually not treated badly.
When did I say I supported that? Curzon line it's fine with me. You're the dumbass who fits words into other people's mouths lol
You Redditors just love using this term, but invasion and genocide are not actually synonymous. You can call Putin apathetic to civilian casualties, but that's not the same as genocide. Of course Ukrainian jingoists love this kind of language because accusing Russia of genocide has been in the playbook for quite a while now
Hey look here's the news source (village voice) you posted talking about what they're doing in Ukraine right now. Lol nice one https://www.villagevoice.com/russias-crimes-in-ukraine-against-humanity-and-nature/
"By general consensus, Stalin was partially responsible." That author would've been executed or gulaged in the ussr since it was a crime to mention the holodomor & blame the authorities. I bet to you that sounds exactly like how a responsible government would respond to criticism.
Layers of deflection to avoid just reading a fucking article. No, mentioning the famine was not a crime and you are literally just making that up because you think it fits the vibe of things.
Why are you so unwilling to contend with the actual content of the article?
I'll believe yours if you believe mine lol
I'm not asking you to believe things because belief is involuntary, just that you read the article.
And an extra
for saying "ruskies"
Even if Russians killed every Ukrainian there'd still be dummies like u in this thread claiming no genocide happened & that it was their fault for resisting.
The only ones who want to fight to the last Ukrainian are bootlicking libs duped by propaganda like you
Don't give those Russians ideas, they'd love to do it & the chuds here would still blame the West.
I don't recognize the result of this referendum 🤓
I hope you meant that ironically lol Neither did the Russian government, they declared it illegal the day before the vote.