I'd like to ask someone who disagrees with me why they think that supporting Ukraine is a bad move?
I don't think the Ukrainian state as it is is worth supporting. It's not this bastion of democracy and freedom the western media pretends it is, it's a shitty corrupt oligarchy same as Russia.
The way I see it, the longer this war goes on, the weaker Russia gets.
I don't care about Russia getting weaker at all tbh. I'd much rather see the west greatly weakened than Russia as they are the bigger threat to world peace and prosperity.
The reason I'm against the west helping Ukraine is they're clearly not helping them win the war, just prolong it. I'd much rather the war end right now with Russia (probably) getting the bigger piece of the cake as it stops the meat grinder on both sides. It's not because I give a shit about Russia winning, it's about stopping the killing. I don't believe people living in the war-torn area would be much better off under Russia or Ukraine as both states suck shit anyway, so stopping the killing is the best they're gonna get for the time being.
I agree with most of this but I'm not sure how you can seriously claim that you don't think that the people of the Donbass will be better off under Russia when the Ukrainian state have been shelling and murdering them since 2014. The bar for Russia here is so goddamn low.
Ukraine has been shelling them because they (Ukraine) were ignoring the ceasefire, they (Ukraine) can't ignore an actual peace treaty without serious consequences, they would just restart the war at that point and then we're back to square one.
The bar for Russia here is so goddamn low.
Sure, I'm just saying they wouldn't really go that much above the bar.
I really don't understand how you can claim that a people who declared independence from Ukraine for being marginalized and suppressed a la having their language rights removed and their political parties banned from running in elections broke a cease fire when they have been under constant attack from literal Nazi militias. Please forgive them for having the gall to defend themselves.
My reading of the situation is like yours -- Ukranian neo-Nazi paramilitaries never honored the Minsk agreements, so the separatists kept defending themselves -- but I certainly wouldn't consider myself an expert on the situation. I know a lot of similar situations kick off with mutual violence, and I don't know the merits of the separatist movement (i.e., how popular is it amongst the people living there?).
I do know that NATO doesn't give a shit about Ukraine and has nothing but bad intentions. I'm skeptical of Russian intentions, but a desire to avoid having a NATO-aligned state full of active neo-Nazi paramilitaries on its doorstep is legitimate, and they did try the diplomatic route.
they (Ukraine) can't ignore an actual peace treaty without serious consequences,
The Nazis with the guns won't stop murdering anyone they imagine is a Russian or other undesirable regardless of what papers get signed. That's why when Zelensky tried to make them stop shelling civilians and honor Minsk II, they told him to fuck off and did not stop. Those Nazis must be eliminated for the killing to stop.
Sure, I'm just saying they wouldn't really go that much above the bar.
Just going by generally used economic indicators, at least materially they will. Ukraine was the poorest country in Europe in 2021. Even poorer than Belarus or Moldova. And that was before the war.
I don't think the Ukrainian state as it is is worth supporting. It's not this bastion of democracy and freedom the western media pretends it is, it's a shitty corrupt oligarchy same as Russia.
I don't care about Russia getting weaker at all tbh. I'd much rather see the west greatly weakened than Russia as they are the bigger threat to world peace and prosperity.
The reason I'm against the west helping Ukraine is they're clearly not helping them win the war, just prolong it. I'd much rather the war end right now with Russia (probably) getting the bigger piece of the cake as it stops the meat grinder on both sides. It's not because I give a shit about Russia winning, it's about stopping the killing. I don't believe people living in the war-torn area would be much better off under Russia or Ukraine as both states suck shit anyway, so stopping the killing is the best they're gonna get for the time being.
I agree with most of this but I'm not sure how you can seriously claim that you don't think that the people of the Donbass will be better off under Russia when the Ukrainian state have been shelling and murdering them since 2014. The bar for Russia here is so goddamn low.
Ukraine has been shelling them because they (Ukraine) were ignoring the ceasefire, they (Ukraine) can't ignore an actual peace treaty without serious consequences, they would just restart the war at that point and then we're back to square one.
Sure, I'm just saying they wouldn't really go that much above the bar.
I really don't understand how you can claim that a people who declared independence from Ukraine for being marginalized and suppressed a la having their language rights removed and their political parties banned from running in elections broke a cease fire when they have been under constant attack from literal Nazi militias. Please forgive them for having the gall to defend themselves.
I meant to say Ukraine was breaking the ceasefire, I agree with you, I just worded that really badly.
Ah. Well thank you for clarifying 🙂
My reading of the situation is like yours -- Ukranian neo-Nazi paramilitaries never honored the Minsk agreements, so the separatists kept defending themselves -- but I certainly wouldn't consider myself an expert on the situation. I know a lot of similar situations kick off with mutual violence, and I don't know the merits of the separatist movement (i.e., how popular is it amongst the people living there?).
I do know that NATO doesn't give a shit about Ukraine and has nothing but bad intentions. I'm skeptical of Russian intentions, but a desire to avoid having a NATO-aligned state full of active neo-Nazi paramilitaries on its doorstep is legitimate, and they did try the diplomatic route.
The people overwhelmingly voted for independence in the region but the dictatorship didn’t like that
The Nazis with the guns won't stop murdering anyone they imagine is a Russian or other undesirable regardless of what papers get signed. That's why when Zelensky tried to make them stop shelling civilians and honor Minsk II, they told him to fuck off and did not stop. Those Nazis must be eliminated for the killing to stop.
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Got any sources on that that aren't directly Russia-aligned? Or if they are how backed up by data are they?
Just google "Crimea bridge", there you have a data-backed example.
Just going by generally used economic indicators, at least materially they will. Ukraine was the poorest country in Europe in 2021. Even poorer than Belarus or Moldova. And that was before the war.