Hey folks
I have been receiving a lot of messages every single day about federation with hexbear. Some of our users are vehemently against it, others are in full support. The conversation does not seem to be dying down, rather, the volume of messages I receive about it seems to be increasing, so I am opening this public space where we can openly discuss the topic.
I am going to write a wall of text about my own thoughts on the situation, I’m sorry, but no tl;dr this time, and I ask anybody participating in this thread to first read through this post before commenting.
Before I go any further, I want to be clear that for anybody who participates here, it is required to focus on the quality of your posts. That means:
- Be kind to each other, even if you disagree
- Use arguments rather than calling people names
- Realize that this is a divisive topic, so your comments should be even more thoughtful than usual
With that out of the way, there are a few things I want to cover.
On defederation in general
First of all, I am a firm believer that defederation must be reserved only for cases where all other methods have failed. If defederation is used liberally, then a small group of malicious users can effectively completely shut down the federated network, by simply creating the type of drama between instances which would inevitably result in defederation. In my view, federation is the biggest strength of Lemmy compared to any centralized discussion forum, so naturally I think maintaining federation by default is an important goal in general.
I am also a believer in the value of deplatforming hateful content, but I think defederation is not the best way to do this. Banning individual users, banning communities and establishing a culture of mutual support between mods and admins of different instances should be the first line of defense against such content. There are some further steps that can be taken before defederation as well, but these are not really documented anywhere (in order to prevent circumvention). The point is: for myself, defederation is the absolute last resort, only to be used when it is completely clear that other methods are ineffective.
Finally, I am wary of creating a false expectation among lemm.ee users that lemm.ee admins endorse all users and communities and content on instances we are federated with. Here at lemm.ee, we use a blocklist for federation, which means our default apporach is to federate with all new instances. We do not have the resources (manpower, skills and knowledge) necessary to pass judgement on all instances which exist out there, as a result, users on lemm.ee are expected to curate their own content to quite a high degree. In addition to downvoting and/or reporting as necessary, individual lemm.ee users are also able to block specific users and communities, and the ability to block entire instances is coming very soon as well.
Having said all that, in a situation where all other methods do indeed fail, defederation is not out of the question. Making such a call is up to the discretion of lemm.ee admins, and doing it as a last resort is completely in line with our federation policy.
Regarding hexbear
Hexbear is an established Lemmy instance, focused on many flavors of leftism. They have quite a large userbase who are very active on Lemmy (often so active that they leave the impression brigading all popular Lemmy posts). One important thing to note is that while some forms of bigotry seem to be quite accepted by many hexbear users (but seemingly not by mods - more on that below), they at least are very protective of LGBT rights (and yes, I am quite certain that they are not just pretending to do this, as many users seem to believe). Additionally, while I have noticed quite high quality posts from hexbear users, there are also several users there who seem to really enjoy trolling and baiting (very reminiscent of 4chan-type “for the lulz” posting), and it’s important to note that this kind of posting is in general allowed on hexbear itself.
The reason this whole topic is important to so many people right now (despite hexbear being a relatively old instance), is that hexbear only recently enabled federation. A combination of their volume of posts, their strong convictions, the excitement about federation, and the aforementioned trolling has made them very visible to almost all Lemmy users, and this has sparked discussions about the value of federation with hexbear on a lot of Lemmy instances.
My own experience with hexbear
I want to write down my own experience with interacting with hexbear users, mods, and admins over the past few days. I believe this experience will highlight why I am hesitant to advocate for immediate full defederation from hexbear at this point in time, and am for now still more in favor of taking action on a more individual user basis. Please read and see how you feel about the situation afterwards.
Background
My first real contact with hexbear users was in the comments section of a post in this meta community requesting defederation from hexbear by @glimpythegoblin@lemm.ee. That post is now locked, because several hexbear users very quickly started doing the aforementioned “for the lulz” type spamming of meme images in the comments (these are actually just emojis, but they are rendered as full-size images on all instances other than the source instance, due to a current Lemmy bug).
I did not want to take further actions in that thread in general (for archival purposes), but I did take one action, which in retrospect was a mistake: I removed a comment which contained the hammer and sickle symbol. I ignorantly associated this symbolism with Kremlin propaganda, and the atrocities my own people suffered at the hands of the soviet union during the previous century. Many users (including hexbear users) correctly (and politely) pointed out to me in DMs that the symbol has a much broader use than just as the symbol of the USSR, and people elsewhere in the world may not associate it with the USSR at all. I am grateful for users who pointed this out to me without resorting to personal attacks.
Let me be clear here: while I do not have anything against leftism or communist ideas in general (in fact in today’s world, I think discussion of such ideas is quite necessary), Kremlin propaganda has no place on lemm.ee. Any dehumanizing talking points of the Kremlin on lemm.ee are treated as any other bigotry, and if communist symbolism is used in context of Kremlin propaganda (that is the context in which I have been exposed to it throughout my whole life), then it will still be removed. But there is no blanket ban on communist symbolism in general on lemm.ee, and discussing and advocating for leftist and communist topics (as distinct from the imperialist and dehumanizing policies of the Kremlin) is certainly allowed on lemm.ee.
Hexbear user response
Coming back to the events of the past few days: soon after my removal of the comment containing the symbol from the meta thread, two posts popped up on hexbear. One was focused on insulting and spreading lies about me personally. Another was focused on diminishing the horrors of the soviet occupation in my country. In the comments under both of these posts (and in a few other threads on hexbear), I noticed some seriously disturbing bigotry against my people. There were comments which reflected the anti-Estonian propaganda of the current Russian state, things like:
- Suggesting that my people has no right to exist
- Stating that my people (and other Baltic nations) are subhuman
- Claiming that anybody critical of both nazi and soviet occupations is themselves a nazi and a holocaust denier
I expect to hear such statements from the Russian state - here in Estonia, we are subjected to this and other kinds of bigotry constantly from Russian media - but to see it spread openly in non-Russian channels is extremely disturbing. Such bigotry is completely against lemm.ee rules in general. Additionally, my identity is public information, because I feel it’s important for the integrity of lemm.ee that I don’t hide behind anonymity. Considering this, I’m sure you can understand why I am very worried about my own safety when people leave comments in many unrelated threads (where my original posts are not even visible), baselessly calling me a nazi and a holocaust denier.
Note that the goal of this post is not to start a new debate in the comments about the the repressions of the soviet union in Estonia or other occupied territories, but if the topic interests any users, I can recommend the 2006 documentary The Singing Revolution (imdb). The trailer is a bit cheesy, but the actual film contains lots of historical footage from the soviet occupation, and also many interviews with people who experienced it, who share stories which are deeply familiar to all Estonians. If anybody is interested in further discussion, then I suggest making a post about it in the Estonian community here: !eesti@lemm.ee.
Hexbear admin response
After the above events had played out, I reached out to hexbear admins for clarification on their moderation policies and how they handle such cases. I was actually very happy with their response:
- They immediately removed the personal attacks and dehumanizing comments containing Kremlin propaganda from Hexbear, and assured me that such content is always handled by mods
- They told me that while there are all kinds of leftists on hexbear, Russian disinformation is generally either refuted in comments or removed by mods
- They implemented some additional rules on hexbear to try and reduce the trolling experienced by many other instances, including ours: https://hexbear.net/post/352119
My personal take-aways
Let me play the devil’s advocate here and employ some “self-whataboutism”: among all users that have been banned on lemm.ee for bigotry, the majority were actually not users from other instances, and in fact people with lemm.ee accounts. If we judge any larger instance only by bigoted posts that some of its users make, then we might as well declare all instances as cesspools and close down Lemmy completely. I believe it’s far more useful to judge instances based on moderation in response to such content. Just as we remove bigoted content from lemm.ee, I have also witnessed bigoted content being removed from hexbear.
At the same time, I am aware of some internal conflict between hexbear users over the more strict moderation they are now starting to employ, and I am definitely keeping an eye on that situation and how admins handle it.
I am also still quite worried about the amount of distinct users on hexbear who have posted Kremlin propaganda. I so far don't have reason to believe that these users are employed by the Russian state, but the fact that they are spreading the same hateful content which can be seen on Russian television seems problematic to say the least, and it remains to be seen if moderators can truly keep up with such content.
Where thing stand right now
I am not convinced that we are currently at a point where the “last resort” of defederation is necessary. This is based on the presumption that our moderation workload at lemm.ee will not get out of hand just due to users from that particular instance. My current expectation is that as the excitement of federation calms down (and as new rules on hexbear go into effect), the currently relatively high volume of low effort trolling will be replaced by more thoughtful posts. If this is not the case then we will certainly need to re-evaluate things.
Additionally, nothing is changing about our own rules regarding bigotry. Especially relevant in the context of Kremlin propaganda, I want to say that dehumanizing anybody is not allowed on lemm.ee (hopefully I do not have to spell it out, but this of course includes Ukrainians, LGBT folks, and others that the Kremlin despises), and action will be taken against any users who do this, regardless of what instance they are posting from.
Finally, I am very interested to hear thoughts and responses from our own users. I am super grateful to anybody who actually took the time to read through this massive dump of my own thoughts, and I am very interested to get a proper understanding of how our users feel about what I’ve written here. Please share any thoughts in the comments.
As a Hexbear user and one of the people your mod and OP interacted with in that thread, I find a good chunk of this post concerning and often spurious.
First, personally, I am one of the people who accused him of engaging in behaviour that was tantamount to Holocaust denial. I did so after his repeated, blunt, assertions of false equivalency between the undisputed horrors of Nazi Germany and those - some true, many disputed, some outright refuted - of the Soviet Union. I explained that this practice is known as the 'Double Genocide Theory' and even linked to articles by Jewish historians and Holocaust academics that explained the issues with the theory and the history of its official use to whitewash far-right movements, particularly in post-Soviet states. Instead of receiving a modicum of serious engagement he instead deliberately and grossly misrepresented and dismissed not only my point but the work of the Jewish academics I linked before leaving with an insult.
Secondly, what exactly constitutes Kremlin propaganda? This is a usually completely baseless claim that is thrown constantly at Hexbear uses, but also almost any marginally left or anti-war figure on the internet. A small but vocal group of cynical users that cannot and will not tolerate opposing viewpoints use it to shut down debate and to smear people. As your mod/OP stated, Hexbear does both refute and ban clear instances of actual Russian (or other) state propaganda when it's demonstrably untrue or breaks our very strict rules on bigotry of any kind. But much of what was smeared as Kremlin propaganda was not, because it was not.
Your very own mod/OP engaged in a version of that in the thread on Hexbear and when pushed on what it meant variably either ignored the question or cast the net as wide as anything Russia (state, politicians, or media) have ever said. Several people made the point that a Russian source can say can say something that's factual, or identify something true and use that as part of a political narrative. Does that objective truth suddenly because false as soon as it's spoken by Russian lips? These questions were ignored.
Personally, I'd prefer that there isn't defederation, that the bad feeling that's undoubtedly been created by members from both instances, is moved on from, and to explore and engage with more of lemm.ee afresh. I also recognise and respect that decision as being lemm.ee's to make, but felt that users deserve to hear some of the other perspective. Especially when I do not believe your mod/OP is either willing or able to be clear eyed or act in good faith around contentious issues like those highlighted in this thread. Which of course is also to be considered, and decided by, users of Lemm.ee.
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I had the same reaction, but a user admitted to it. I didn't see the original comment, but the fact that they're not banned suggests they misspoke or something.
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At first I thought the accusations of bigotry were because of the jokes we make about Italians or our criticisms of the state of Israel. Turns out that wasn't it.
Currently I'm still very confused, because it seems like any positive claim about the USSR or any discussion of Russia outside of a pro-NATO lens can be considered bigotry. This is where I'm lost, because I truly don't get it.
I'm welcome to temper how much I talk about China and Russia on other instances, because I realize they're contentious topics and honestly I'd much rather discuss political stuff closer to me anyway. But I really don't understand how I'm supposed to discuss things that fall outside of a typical western perception of socialist countries, or anti-imperialism, or modern Russia. Should I just avoid those topics entirely? Should I not say anything unless I'm saying the consensus western liberal opinion? Because that doesn't feel right.
Any bigoted opinion posted to it is usually nuked from orbit within 5 minutes.
Your position is impossible to argue against in good faith when you start with "any Estonian who is critical of both of their occupiers is a holocaust denier".
Let me also say for the record that I have not once, in any of my posts, attempted to compare the "level" of evil of the soviets and the nazis. If by "assertions of false equivalency" you are referring to the fact that both the nazis and soviets did indeed occupy my country and commit crimes against humanity here, then sure, that is something I have been asserting. Still, I have never tried to downplay the horrors the nazis committed, I have only condemned them in the strongest possible terms. I am asking to please include this context about me if you ever feel the need to call me a holocaust denier. Please also remember that I am a real human with a public identity, and words you post on the internet can have a real effect on my life.
As for "leaving with an insult", I do not believe I have written a single insult to anybody on hexbear (or elsewhere on Lemmy), but I'm sorry if you feel like I was rude at any point. I was simply trying to disengage, because it was clear that the more I interacted on hexbear, the more personal attacks I was receiving.
I think this question is bait, but I will answer in good faith with an example to hopefully drive the point home.
Posting "[hammer and sickle] 10 reasons why we need communism..." is clearly not Kremlin propaganda. Posting "[hammer and sickle] Ukraine shouldn't even exist, long live CCCP" is clearly Kremlin propanda.
That doesn't sound like something that would be posted on Hexbear, except in The Dunk Tank.
It's the kind of concern a nationalist would feel, Leftists don't typically ascribe human traits to states, rather they're evaluated by how the affect the people within. When we say Israel shouldn't exist, we're not talking about the land or the people, we're talking about the state keeping over half the population disenfranchised and in inhuman conditions.
Not spending any more blood to enrich Raytheon's shareholders and strip the copper out of Ukraine's walls is infinitely greater concern than what flag flies over Kiev to us.
I've only seen it posted as a joke too, and thats rare
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Dude did you not just read any of the post you are replying to? We care deeply about the people and we don't care much which nation controls the borders but about the material conditions of the people therein.
I mean this with greatest respect: pointing out Double Holocaust Theory is not arguing in bad faith. It's arguing that there has been an organized push by antisemites to trivialize the Holocaust by equating it with crimes committed by the USSR. This mostly comes from 20th century anti-communist propaganda efforts. The forces that are trying to push the equivalency narrative are aligned with Nazi ideology or similar. Liberals may not care about the distinction because they figure that they can point at both communists and Nazis as being bad and move on, but doing so only assists the antisemites in their efforts. Point being, regardless of how you feel about the USSR or communism, you are effectively carrying water for Holocaust-deniers by failing to recognize the difference.
To be clear, I am not calling you an antisemite or a Holocaust denier, because it is very clear you are here in good faith trying to sort out this mess, and have been doing so respectfully. I am only trying to explain the argument so that you and others can attempt to make sense of the obvious dissonance between viewpoints. It's akin to unknowingly using ableist or misogynist language. If you're ignorant of the issue, then no one should ascribe malice to your language, but upon being made aware of the issue, it's expected that you should be more careful going forward.
Again, with respect, I don't think this addresses the issue. I appreciate that you are open to the idea that advocating in favor of communism isn't de facto Russian propaganda (the current Russian state and ideological bent bears no resemblance to communism). Hexbear users are, at most, critically supportive of Russia for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with Putin or Russian nationalism, and much more to do with criticism of NATO and the US, in particular.
I think what we're trying to figure out is how to engage when anything that doesn't explicitly agree with the Western narrative is immediately dismissed as Russian propaganda. As an example, the Snake Island incident last year smelled fishy, but to call the Ukrainian government's statements about it into question at the time would get one accused of being a Russian shill. We now know that the Ukrainian government lied about it. That's fair pool, as far as I'm concerned. It's how you wage an information war. I don't care if a state wants to lie about things (and states will do so regardless), but I do want to get as close to the truth as possible, and that means critical analysis and skepticism. If there's no room for that analysis and skepticism then it's effectively declaring not just an anti-Russian-propaganda position, but rather an active preference for Western propaganda over everything else. That, by the way, is a valid choice, but if that's the party line then it should be made explicit. It's valid to say "anything pro-Russia or anti-NATO is banned" but that needs to be said, rather than hinted at. "Kremlin propaganda" isn't a self-explanatory phrase.
All of that said, I empathize with you in your attempt to make sense of all of this. While there is a lot of friction here, I think most of us are earnest in trying to reach understanding, if not agreement. The above is an attempt to shed some light on what might be causing dissonance. You're very patient to try and work through this, and I hope I and my fellow hexbear users haven't caused you too much stress. Most of us really are trying to play ball.
I didn't come here to relitigate that thread with you, because that is not what this thread is about and I did not want to distract from its purpose put of respect to Lemm.ee users. It was only to voice some context that was missing and encourage users to look at the problems of broader, ill-defined subject matter bans especially when enforced by a mod I perceived as having behaved in bad faith faith on the subject. Anyone can go and read that thread in its entirety or out exchanges via my history (I imagine I post less than you do and it would be easier). And despite my natural urge to dig it up again here and go another round, I won't for the reasons already stated. This isn't the thread to hash out our past disagreements (however serious and deeply held) as mods and users of both instances have agreed.
I don't understand how asking straightforward question, with qualifiers to be extra clear, is "bait"? Again, here, I've been polite, factual, and acted in good faith and your response is one of suspicion and disrespect.
I don't think your response is clear at all. It uses an extreme strawman example and then dismisses the issue as obvious. Even the example is needlessly muddled. Do you equate support of the Soviet Union, a state that hasn't existed for over 40 years and whose politics were diametrically opposed with modern Russia's, as support of present day Russia? Is that the issue? Or the idea that a state shouldn't exist? Because if nothing else that would eliminate the principles of a lot of anarchists, as well as liberation and indigenous movements etc. Or is it that Ukraine specifically cannot receive that sort of criticism? For the record I don't support any of that statement. I don't support the first half and the second is irrelevant since it no longer exists.
I (and I'm sure tons of community members from different communities) appreciate how responsive you've been throughout the thread, and I just want to share a thought to your reply. You said:
This example is like a 10/10 easy slam dunk, but I think the concern that many users have about alleging "Kremlin propaganda" is that there are an infinite amount of examples that are much harder, if not impossible, to clearly distinguish. It's these grey areas, which are also far more common, that prompt different degrees of skepticism or uncertainty about the terminology and its application. It's easy to apply the term to extreme and unlikely hypotheticals, but to apply it to actual conversations is a different task
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That is my understanding as well, and I'm very happy to hear you confirm that.
OP also made the extremly suspicious claim of Hexbears calling him "Subhuman" he pretentens we use Nazi Terminology ... gives off bad faith vibes...
Someone here admitted that it was them.
have they been banned?
they apologized in this thread.
What are you talking about dude?
Stalin killed way more people than the Nazis did. Nazis and Satlin were both horrid and evil. Don't even pretend that there's any redeeming qualities of Stalinism.
Doing Holocaust denial to own the commies.
Just out of curiosity, how many people do you believe the nazis killed?
I'm sure there's some debate on the exact number but around 17 million is the typical number.
If you only look at the Soviet Union, the nazis killed more than 25 million.
Then add onto that everyone killed in all the other countries they invaded, everyone killed in the deathcamps, everyone killed by deathsquads, every allied soldier and partisan killed in the European theatre, and all the Germans forced into the wehrmacht against their will.
Your estimate of 17 million is so far off the mark that I have to wonder if your parents and teachers failed you, or if you're a fascist apologist deliberatly trying to downplay the death toll of the German nazis. So which is it?