if they lived everywhere with humans for at least 2000+ years, from imperial China to imperial Rome and everything in between, i think you can say cats are ok
but ok, if you want to be pedantic, sure, they are not real cats if they don't come from the kat region somewhere in palestine 🙄
Americans desperately need everything to have a definite Right Way and Wrong Way, and the Right Way needs to involve significantly more money and/or effort (preferably being impossible), so that we can properly judge people who are Doing Things The Wrong Way as immoral. Of course that extends to cat care.
What part of cats being good at killing things is that hard for you to believe?
that's why we kept them around for millenias, and that's why - unlike chickens, dogs or cows - cats are just semi-domesticated. keeping cats inside is just cruel and bad practice
I have a cat. I have always had cats in my life. I love cats. I consider myself a "cat person" (who also loves dogs). But you really are being obtuse here. Even in places where cats are not a threat to literally entire species (as they are in much of the world), they can cause massive, irreversible destruction to the local wildlife. That is a fact.
The argument that it's cruel to keep cats indoors doesn't resonate with me either. Outdoor cats are far more likely to be seriously injured or killed by any number of things that are found only outside. From diseases to predators to sadistic humans, with the big obvious factor being cars. But a well-cared for indoor cat is a safe cat. I'm not going to look it up right now, but it's something like the average lifespan of an outdoor cat is only 3-4 years whereas indoor cats it's like 16-18. In my experience (and I've known a lot of cats, both indoor and outdoor) most that are raised indoors are perfectly happy to remain that way so long as they are given the things they need. That includes exercise and mental, emotional, and social stimulation. If you provide for them, there aren't many things they desire that they can get outdoor that can't also be given to them indoors. It is much more cruel to have a cat that you let outside but mostly ignore except to feed them, than it is to have an indoor-only cat that you make time for every day to play with, give affection, or otherwise engage. There are also plenty of compromises if you're a human that's privileged enough to be able to provide them, like outdoor enclosures.
Finally, this thing about calling the "cats should be kept indoors" argument an American position is just crude and wrong. The American way is more along the lines of "lol, I'm going to do what I want because I feel like it, I don't give a shit about all the evidence that what I want is harmful to others." In other words, "I don't care about the local bird, rodent, reptile, and native predator populations, I'm going to do what I want with MY cat" seems to be a hell of a lot more of an Americanism than @Egon@hexbear.net explaining to you why outdoor cats are a detriment to wildlife all over the world. When it's also taken into account that it's typically islands that have suffered the worst consequences of cats as an invasive species, islands that are also victims of US imperialism, saying that cats should be kept indoors is an American moral imposition is straight up offensive. At best, it's adding insult to injury.
Thank you for doing most of the heavy lifting trying to get through to them despite all that ableism and the obvious attempts to rattle you. It started to work on me, I was taking the last reply pretty personally at first (as was intended) before I saw it for what it was. It's too bad. At the very top of the thread I thought they might have been a decent comrade.
I don't treat my cat as a commodity at all and fuck you for implying I do. I give him the happiest most fulfilling life I can possibly afford, and it is good and happy. He is a joyful cat and I'm glad I was able to rescue him from the feral environment he was in as an "outdoor cat" where he was facing a harsh and short life before likely an early and painful death. [editing out some personal info here]. Don't fucking tell me about responsibility you smug cretin.
But you... what animals do you treat as commodities? You better be a vegan or any bullshit you're saying about others treating living, breathing creatures as a commodity you can fuck RIGHT off with your hypocrisy and moral superiority bullshit. (I am a vegan by the way because I'm not a hypocrite in my refusal to treat sentient life as a commodity).
Frankly, I find your use of leftist terminology to justify your selfish cruelty to not only your own pets but to the other life around them to be disgusting. If you can't or won't take responsibility for the harm you cause in the world for taking the lazy way of caring for a pet, for putting the sentient life that relies on you in danger, you are not fit to care for them at all.
“Most cats are probably better off being able to go outside, but not all of them,” Bjarne Braastad tells sciencenorway.no. He is a retired professor in ethology, the study of animal behaviour, at the Norwegian University of Life Sciences (NMBU).
According to Braastad not all cats want to be outside. If the cat has only ever lived inside from when it was a tiny kitten, then it would be perfectly fine for it to live inside for the rest of its life also."
https://sciencenorway.no/animal-behaviour-animal-welfare-cats/is-it-cruel-to-keep-your-cat-indoors/2107167 so, yeah, there is a movement to keep cats indoor, but it's some pseudo scientific internet thing, that is mostly a thing in anglo-countries* (https://icatcare.org/indoor-only-or-outdoor-access/). While other countries see it as pure animal cruelty "It is animal cruelty not to let them do what they like."
but it's like you keep trying to deny it, but also you can't deny it so you just shift the argument.
Notice the repeated hijacking of leftist rhetoric and terms in all that obvious goal post shifting and obnoxious debatebro shit. Like trying to tie your plain facts explanation to you somehow having an imperialist, capitalist, mindset. Then telling me I treat my cat "as a commodity" after I had gone on about how meaningful cats are to me. Almost as if they're just trying to push buttons.
This conversation isn't about discussing the issue in good faith, it's someone who clearly doesn't have anything to back up their position and can only do the classic lashing out in a pathetic attempt to provoke.
There are ecological problems. Killing birds and things. They've caused several species-extinctions in Australia iirc, where they are not native.
ok, they are problem in Australia I give you that. but where they existed and lived with humans since forever?
it's not like we have to adopt stupid Anglo internet paranoias just bcs some some aussie fucked up. fuck anglos anyway
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so besides Africa, Eurasia, and America, yes, they are a problem in antartica and oceania. got it
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if they lived everywhere with humans for at least 2000+ years, from imperial China to imperial Rome and everything in between, i think you can say cats are ok
but ok, if you want to be pedantic, sure, they are not real cats if they don't come from the kat region somewhere in palestine 🙄
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Americans desperately need everything to have a definite Right Way and Wrong Way, and the Right Way needs to involve significantly more money and/or effort (preferably being impossible), so that we can properly judge people who are Doing Things The Wrong Way as immoral. Of course that extends to cat care.
that's why we kept them around for millenias, and that's why - unlike chickens, dogs or cows - cats are just semi-domesticated. keeping cats inside is just cruel and bad practice
I have a cat. I have always had cats in my life. I love cats. I consider myself a "cat person" (who also loves dogs). But you really are being obtuse here. Even in places where cats are not a threat to literally entire species (as they are in much of the world), they can cause massive, irreversible destruction to the local wildlife. That is a fact.
The argument that it's cruel to keep cats indoors doesn't resonate with me either. Outdoor cats are far more likely to be seriously injured or killed by any number of things that are found only outside. From diseases to predators to sadistic humans, with the big obvious factor being cars. But a well-cared for indoor cat is a safe cat. I'm not going to look it up right now, but it's something like the average lifespan of an outdoor cat is only 3-4 years whereas indoor cats it's like 16-18. In my experience (and I've known a lot of cats, both indoor and outdoor) most that are raised indoors are perfectly happy to remain that way so long as they are given the things they need. That includes exercise and mental, emotional, and social stimulation. If you provide for them, there aren't many things they desire that they can get outdoor that can't also be given to them indoors. It is much more cruel to have a cat that you let outside but mostly ignore except to feed them, than it is to have an indoor-only cat that you make time for every day to play with, give affection, or otherwise engage. There are also plenty of compromises if you're a human that's privileged enough to be able to provide them, like outdoor enclosures.
Finally, this thing about calling the "cats should be kept indoors" argument an American position is just crude and wrong. The American way is more along the lines of "lol, I'm going to do what I want because I feel like it, I don't give a shit about all the evidence that what I want is harmful to others." In other words, "I don't care about the local bird, rodent, reptile, and native predator populations, I'm going to do what I want with MY cat" seems to be a hell of a lot more of an Americanism than @Egon@hexbear.net explaining to you why outdoor cats are a detriment to wildlife all over the world. When it's also taken into account that it's typically islands that have suffered the worst consequences of cats as an invasive species, islands that are also victims of US imperialism, saying that cats should be kept indoors is an American moral imposition is straight up offensive. At best, it's adding insult to injury.
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Thank you for doing most of the heavy lifting trying to get through to them despite all that ableism and the obvious attempts to rattle you. It started to work on me, I was taking the last reply pretty personally at first (as was intended) before I saw it for what it was. It's too bad. At the very top of the thread I thought they might have been a decent comrade.
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I don't treat my cat as a commodity at all and fuck you for implying I do. I give him the happiest most fulfilling life I can possibly afford, and it is good and happy. He is a joyful cat and I'm glad I was able to rescue him from the feral environment he was in as an "outdoor cat" where he was facing a harsh and short life before likely an early and painful death. [editing out some personal info here]. Don't fucking tell me about responsibility you smug cretin.
But you... what animals do you treat as commodities? You better be a vegan or any bullshit you're saying about others treating living, breathing creatures as a commodity you can fuck RIGHT off with your hypocrisy and moral superiority bullshit. (I am a vegan by the way because I'm not a hypocrite in my refusal to treat sentient life as a commodity).
Frankly, I find your use of leftist terminology to justify your selfish cruelty to not only your own pets but to the other life around them to be disgusting. If you can't or won't take responsibility for the harm you cause in the world for taking the lazy way of caring for a pet, for putting the sentient life that relies on you in danger, you are not fit to care for them at all.
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“Most cats are probably better off being able to go outside, but not all of them,” Bjarne Braastad tells sciencenorway.no. He is a retired professor in ethology, the study of animal behaviour, at the Norwegian University of Life Sciences (NMBU).
According to Braastad not all cats want to be outside. If the cat has only ever lived inside from when it was a tiny kitten, then it would be perfectly fine for it to live inside for the rest of its life also."
https://sciencenorway.no/animal-behaviour-animal-welfare-cats/is-it-cruel-to-keep-your-cat-indoors/2107167 so, yeah, there is a movement to keep cats indoor, but it's some pseudo scientific internet thing, that is mostly a thing in anglo-countries* (https://icatcare.org/indoor-only-or-outdoor-access/). While other countries see it as pure animal cruelty "It is animal cruelty not to let them do what they like."
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Notice the repeated hijacking of leftist rhetoric and terms in all that obvious goal post shifting and obnoxious debatebro shit. Like trying to tie your plain facts explanation to you somehow having an imperialist, capitalist, mindset. Then telling me I treat my cat "as a commodity" after I had gone on about how meaningful cats are to me. Almost as if they're just trying to push buttons.
This conversation isn't about discussing the issue in good faith, it's someone who clearly doesn't have anything to back up their position and can only do the classic lashing out in a pathetic attempt to provoke.
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