I would really suggest reading The Jakarta Method or looking into what happened to Allende to get our perspective on democratic socialism and why it isn't a viable path.
Thanks! I'll definitely look up the Jakarta Method. Can you clarify about Allende, though? What does the massacre have to do with democratic socialism? Everything I could find talked about how the US DEA put it's grubby paws on them and upset the cartels
Well, it is a good example of the way that socialist movements that try to win power through bourgeois democracy universally end up losing in a spectacularly bloody fashion.
This is a bit long but very well made video about what happened in Chile if you want to understand the history and context.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJLA2_Ho7X0
Project Cybersyn was a socialist logistical mechanism for running the economy based on a marxist understanding of production. It later became the basis for neoliberal logistical protocols because of how effective the methodology actually was in practice. This is partly why the military coup was used ultimately. Allende and Cybersyn were so effective at circumventing the other forms of control and manipulation that were initially used in response.
So even if you survive the first, second, etc order reactions, that just means an escalation towards total war will be coming soon.
I'm just going to toss out a relevant excerpt from The Jakarta Method:
This was another very difficult question I had to ask my interview subjects, especially the leftists from Southeast Asia and Latin America. When we would get to discussing the old debates between peaceful and armed revolution; between hardline Marxism and democratic socialism, I would ask: “Who was right?”
In Guatemala, was it Árbenz or Che who had the right approach? Or in Indonesia, when Mao warned Aidit that the PKI should arm themselves, and they did not? In Chile, was it the young revolutionaries in the MIR who were right in those college debates, or the more disciplined, moderate Chilean Communist Party?
Most of the people I spoke with who were politically involved back then believed fervently in a nonviolent approach, in gradual, peaceful, democratic change. They often had no love for the systems set up by people like Mao. But they knew that their side had lost the debate, because so many of their friends were dead. They often admitted, without hesitation or pleasure, that the hardliners had been right. Aidit’s unarmed party didn’t survive. Allende’s democratic socialism was not allowed, regardless of the détente between the Soviets and Washington.
Looking at it this way, the major losers of the twentieth century were those who believed too sincerely in the existence of a liberal international order, those who trusted too much in democracy, or too much in what the United States said it supported, rather than what it really supported -- what the rich countries said, rather than what they did.
That group was annihilated.
I would also suggest Frantz Fanon's The Wretched of the Earth which we happen to be reading right now in Hexbear's book club. We're a couple chapters in already, but it's a slow schedule so easy to catch up for anyone interested. (Thanks to @Othello@hexbear.net for cluing me in on it).
I would really suggest reading The Jakarta Method or looking into what happened to Allende to get our perspective on democratic socialism and why it isn't a viable path.
Thanks! I'll definitely look up the Jakarta Method. Can you clarify about Allende, though? What does the massacre have to do with democratic socialism? Everything I could find talked about how the US DEA put it's grubby paws on them and upset the cartels
He was a democratic socialist. Won as a marxist through the communist party in a popular election.
The US immediately couped him, bombed the seat of government, and installed Agusto Pinochet.
"America will use fascism to protect Capitalism while claiming to defend democracy from communism"
Ah, there was a person named Allende. I was only seeing articles about the city in Mexico 😅
In fairness though that speaks more about the atrocities of the US than Democratic socialism.
it also speaks a lot to how search algorithms will bury ideas dangerous to capital.
Well, it is a good example of the way that socialist movements that try to win power through bourgeois democracy universally end up losing in a spectacularly bloody fashion.
Ah, I see. This makes sense actually, thanks.
This is a bit long but very well made video about what happened in Chile if you want to understand the history and context.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJLA2_Ho7X0
Project Cybersyn was a socialist logistical mechanism for running the economy based on a marxist understanding of production. It later became the basis for neoliberal logistical protocols because of how effective the methodology actually was in practice. This is partly why the military coup was used ultimately. Allende and Cybersyn were so effective at circumventing the other forms of control and manipulation that were initially used in response.
So even if you survive the first, second, etc order reactions, that just means an escalation towards total war will be coming soon.
I'm just going to toss out a relevant excerpt from The Jakarta Method:
I would also suggest Frantz Fanon's The Wretched of the Earth which we happen to be reading right now in Hexbear's book club. We're a couple chapters in already, but it's a slow schedule so easy to catch up for anyone interested. (Thanks to @Othello@hexbear.net for cluing me in on it).
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