• Zuzak [fae/faer, she/her]
    ·
    edit-2
    1 year ago
    Excerpt from Michael Parenti's Blackshirts and Reds

    Some leftists and others fall back on the old stereotype of power hungry Reds who pursue power for powers sake without regard for actual social goals. If true, one wonders why, in country after country, these Reds side with the poor and powerless often at great risk and sacrifice to themselves, rather than reaping the rewards that come with serving the well-placed.

    For decades, many left-leaning writers and speakers in the United States have felt obliged to establish their credibility by indulging in anticommunist and anti-Soviet genuflection, seemingly unable to give a talk or write an article or book review on whatever political subject without injecting some anti-Red sideswipe. The intent was, and still is, to distance themselves from the Marxist-Leninist Left.

    Adam Hochschild, a liberal writer and publisher, warned those on the Left who might be lackadaisical about condemning existing communist societies that they "weaken their credibility" (Guardian, 5/23/84). In other words, to be credible opponents of the cold war, we first had to join in cold war condemnations of communist societies. Ronald Radosh urged that the peace movement purge itself of communists so that it not be accused of being communist (Guardian, 3/16/83). If I understand Radosh: To save ourselves from anticommunist witchhunts, we should ourselves become witchhunters.

    Purging the Left of communists became a longstanding practice, having injurious effects on various progressive causes. For instance, in 1949 some twelve unions were ousted from the CIO because they had Reds in their leadership. The purge reduced CIO membership by some 1.7 million and seriously weakened its recruitment drives and political clout. In the late 1940s, to avoid being "smeared" as Reds, Americans for Democratic Action (ADA), a supposedly progressive group, became one of the most vocally anticommunist organizations.

    The strategy did not work. ADA and others on the Left were still attacked for being communist or soft on communism by those on the Right. Then and now, many on the Left have failed to realize that those who fight for social change on behalf of the less-privileged elements of society will be Red-baited by conservative elites whether they are communists or not. For ruling interests, it makes little difference whether their wealth and power is challenged by "communist subversives" or "loyal American liberals." All are lumped together as more or less equally abhorrent.

    Even when attacking the Right, left critics cannot pass up an opportunity to flash their anticommunist credentials. So Mark Green writes in a criticism of President Ronald Reagan that "when presented with a situation that challenges his conservative catechism, like an unyielding Marxist-Leninist, [Reagan] will change not his mind but the facts." While professing a dedication to fighting dogmatism "both of the Right and Left," individuals who perform such de rigueur genuflections reinforce the anticommunist dogma. Red-baiting leftists contributed their share to the climate of hostility that has given U.S. leaders such a free hand in waging hot and cold wars against communist countries and which even today makes a progressive or even liberal agenda difficult to promote.

    A prototypic Red-basher who pretended to be on the Left was George Orwell. In the middle of World War II, as the Soviet Union was fighting for its life against the Nazi invaders at Stalingrad, Orwell announced that a "willingness to criticize Russia and Stalin is the test of intellectual honesty. It is the only thing that from a literary intellectual's point of view is really dangerous" (Monthly Review, 5/83). Safely ensconced within a virulently anticommunist society, Orwell (with Orwellian doublethink) characterized the condemnation of communism as a lonely courageous act of defiance. Today, his ideological progeny are still at it, offering themselves as intrepid left critics of the Left, waging a valiant struggle against imaginary Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist hordes.

    Sorely lacking within the U.S. Left is any rational evaluation of the Soviet Union, a nation that endured a protracted civil war and a multinational foreign invasion in the very first years of its existence, and that two decades later threw back and destroyed the Nazi beast at enormous cost to itself. In the three decades after the Bolshevik revolution, the Soviets made industrial advances equal to what capitalism took a century to accomplish—while feeding and schooling their children rather than working them fourteen hours a day as capitalist industrialists did and still do in many parts of the world. And the Soviet Union, along with Bulgaria, the German Democratic Republic, and Cuba, provided vital assistance to national liberation movements in countries around the world, including Nelson Mandela's African National Congress in South Africa.

    Left anticommunists remained studiously unimpressed by the dramatic gains won by masses of previously impoverished people under communism. Some were even scornful of such accomplishments. I recall how in Burlington Vermont, in 1971, the noted anticommunist anarchist, Murray Bookchin, derisively referred to my concern for "the poor little children who got fed under communism" (his words).

    Those of us who refused to join in the Soviet bashing were branded by left anticommunists as "Soviet apologists" and "Stalinists," even if we disliked Stalin and his autocratic system of rule and believed there were things seriously wrong with existing Soviet society. Our real sin was that unlike many on the Left we refused to uncritically swallow U.S. media propaganda about communist societies. Instead, we maintained that, aside from the well-publicized deficiencies and injustices, there were positive features about existing communist systems that were worth preserving, that improved the lives of hundreds of millions of people in meaningful and humanizing ways. This claim had a decidedly unsettling effect on left anticommunists who themselves could not utter a positive word about any communist society (except possibly Cuba) and could not lend a tolerant or even courteous ear to anyone who did.

    Saturated by anticommunist orthodoxy, most U.S. leftists have practiced a left McCarthyism against people who did have something positive to say about existing communism, excluding them from participation in conferences, advisory boards, political endorsements, and left publications. Like conservatives, left anticommunists tolerated nothing less than a blanket condemnation of the Soviet Union as a Stalinist monstrosity and a Leninist moral aberration.

    • 420blazeit69 [he/him]
      ·
      1 year ago

      Related excerpt:

      The pure (libertarian) socialists' ideological anticipations remain untainted by existing practice. They do not explain how the manifold functions of a revolutionary society would be organized, how external attack and internal sabotage would be thwarted, how bureaucracy would be avoided, scarce resources allocated, policy differences settled, priorities set, and production and distribution conducted. Instead, they offer vague statements about how the workers themselves will directly own and control the means of production and will arrive at their own solutions through creative struggle. No surprise then that the pure socialists support every revolution except the ones that succeed.

    • Thordros [he/him, comrade/them]
      ·
      1 year ago

      Fun fact: the word count of the people shidding and pissing and cumming about how long this excerpt is now exceeds the word count of the excerpt itself.

      • InappropriateEmote [comrade/them, undecided]
        ·
        1 year ago

        Gonna paste a comment I made a couple weeks ago. Seems relevant again, both because of the accusation levied against hexbears and also because Parenti.

        Oh a hexbear. ... You lot only have overly simplistic takes.

        When we respond to blatant ignorance with carefully chosen wording, backing up our position with citations and links, and calmly explaining the nuance of complex geopolitical realities, we get accused of "always throwing walls of text at people." When we answer that same ignorance with short and pithy responses, we "only have simplistic takes."

        parenti-hands

        There's no winning with you simple-minded dronies, but I guess there never is when one side can just make shit up that fits their vibes-based outlook on the world.

        • PatFusty@lemm.ee
          ·
          1 year ago

          Gonna paste a comment i made yesterday. Seems relevant again, both because of the accusation levied against deez nuts and also because why not.

          PIGPOOPBALLS

    • PatFusty@lemm.ee
      ·
      1 year ago

      TLDR

      Do you guys actually write this shit out or are you ctrl + v from some source? Every time i see hexbears they write up a whole journal article as a comment that most likely nobody is going to read.

      • Zuzak [fae/faer, she/her]
        ·
        1 year ago

        ...I said "Excerpt from Michael Parenti's Blackshirts and Reds," because it's, uhh, an excerpt from Michael Parenti's Blackshirts and Reds.

        I copied it from a pdf of the book I cited because I found it relevant. Really, if you want to fully understand how fascism and communism are different and not comparable, you should read the whole book. I know, I probably sound like a crazy person for suggesting that people read a whole entire book to better understand politics instead of going off vibes, but that's just how I roll I guess.

      • 420blazeit69 [he/him]
        ·
        1 year ago

        most likely nobody is going to read

        Being too lazy and uncurious to read a handful of paragraphs is not something to be proud of

      • Gelamzer
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        deleted by creator

      • aaaaaaadjsf [he/him, comrade/them]
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        It's a quote from a book they read. You should try reading books sometime, it's cool.

        If you want a summary, the last two paragraphs they quoted could serve as one.

      • raven [he/him]
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        Are you asking if she copied and pasted an excerpt from a book? Yes, of course she did. Lol

        Edit: If I took a video of myself retyping it or writing it by hand, would you read it then? I'll do it.

      • Flaps [he/him]
        ·
        1 year ago

        Just read it ffs you libs are just the laziest

        • PatFusty@lemm.ee
          ·
          1 year ago

          Im actually a cracker.. no wait im a fascist... or am I a conservative?? I dont know you hexbears call me everything i dont remember where we left off

          • Flaps [he/him]
            ·
            1 year ago

            You'd be better able to define what you are on ideological grounds if you'd read

                • PatFusty@lemm.ee
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  I dont remember talking to you.. are you the same person with multiple accounts?

                  • Ho_Chi_Chungus [she/her]
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    Hi, I'm not @boboblaw@hexbear.net, but it seems you're having some difficulty understanding where you are right now. I understand object permeance and talking to multiple people may be confusing for some. What you are on right now is called a Public Internet Forum. This is a type of forum where anyone with an internet connection and a functioning web browser can participate in all manner of discussion. In this discussion in particular, I was making a joke about how dumb you are taking a intellectual posture on the internet while clearly having absolutely nothing of remote intellectual interest backing it. Now you might be saying "Now wait a minute here Mr. Chungus, but you aren't the person I was talking to earlier!"

                    And you know what internet user? You're right. With the magic of the internet, any number of internet users can communicate with you, not just one! You can tell when a different internet user is communicating with you by checking either their Profile Picture or their Username, which are distinct indicators of who you're talking to

                    If you have any other questions about using the internet, feel free to ask them now

                    Thank you, and have a wonderful day

      • Wisp [fae/faer, any]
        ·
        1 year ago

        It’s like 2 sentences. Your post is practically the same length

      • figaro@lemdro.id
        ·
        1 year ago

        I think a part of good, honest discourse is recognizing and respecting the time of the person you are talking with.

        If you are going to respond with 11 paragraphs quoted from a book, you should preempt it by saying something to diffuse it. Something like, "oh man, this is super long but actually quite beneficial. I wrote a tldr though at the end in case you don't have time to read the whole thing."

        I use this site while I'm at work. I literally don't have time to read all of that lol.

        • Zuzak [fae/faer, she/her]
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          That's why I put it behind a spoiler to avoid clogging up the thread.

          I put in the time of reading the book in the first place, then I remembered a relevant bit so I went back and looked through the book to try to find it, read through it again to make sure it was actually relevant, edited it because it was from a pdf and had wierd line breaks, and considered which parts were relevant to include and whether I should omit some of the examples. I cited that book not only because it expressed what I wanted to say, but also because it's written in a modern style that's easier to read than many socialist works.

          I guess I'm just used to an environment on Hexbear where people are more receptive towards reading relevant theory and some of us actually read not just posts and excerpts, but whole entire books. Maybe I should've just posted Pig Poop Balls instead.

          • figaro@lemdro.id
            ·
            1 year ago

            I don't doubt that you were doing it in good faith, but the execution was still in such a way that it is off-putting.

            • 420blazeit69 [he/him]
              ·
              1 year ago

              You have nothing of substance to contribute. Just "waaaaah your comment is more than a few sentences."

              • figaro@lemdro.id
                ·
                edit-2
                1 year ago

                Say what you want, 11 paragraphs is objectively longer than what most people want to read on social media. 11 paragraphs is just annoying and unproductive.

                You can see I'm right because literally everyone who isn't a hexbear is like wtf is this. It is bad communication.

                • 420blazeit69 [he/him]
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  In the time you've spent pissing and moaning about that comment you could have read it five times over.

                  • figaro@lemdro.id
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    That would be accepting it as good communication. My point is to not do that, because it is not good communication. I agree with you though, I could have.

            • Zuzak [fae/faer, she/her]
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              edit-2
              1 year ago

              You don't have to click the spoiler. It's literally one line you can easily scroll past, but some people who have more time might find it interesting.

              Anyway it's a response to a pretty low-effort, unoriginal meme, the whole "proportional time" thing cuts both ways. I've added more to making these comments a meaningful, intelligent dialogue than OP did.

              • figaro@lemdro.id
                ·
                1 year ago

                I will respectfully disagree that throwing in 11 paragraphs of some text without explanation adds to a meaningful dialogue

                • Zuzak [fae/faer, she/her]
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  1 year ago

                  I will respectfully disagree that you can make that evaluation without knowing what the text actually says.

                  • figaro@lemdro.id
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    I get that the text might have some good and important meaning, but the format the meaning was delivered in spoils it.

                    Like, I would love it if someone gave me a million dollars. But do I want the million dollars in pennies? Not really lol

                    • Zuzak [fae/faer, she/her]
                      ·
                      edit-2
                      1 year ago

                      You're just complaining to complain at this point. Literally just scroll past if it's such a problem. All I did was lead you to water, I'm not forcing you to drink.

                      You choosing to die on this hill just makes me think of this lol

                      Show

                      • figaro@lemdro.id
                        ·
                        1 year ago

                        I'm just saying to package the words in a way that is comprehensible to the person reading it, and likely that they will.

                        I honestly don't doubt that there was some good content in it. But the audience you are talking to doesn't want the communication you are giving in that format. It comes off as annoying, and therefore not effective in communicating the message you want to deliver.

                        I'm over here delivering free marketing lessons to tankies lol.

                        I'm gonna go touch grass now. Good luck with stuff

                        • Zuzak [fae/faer, she/her]
                          ·
                          1 year ago

                          I'm gonna go touch grass now.

                          Please do, anything else you could do can't be less productive than this.

                        • boboblaw [he/him, they/them]
                          ·
                          edit-2
                          1 year ago

                          Marketing lessons, lmao. You certainly have the intellectual depth of a puddle, my guy.

                          No one gives a shit about how much appeal our posting has for you. We're not trying to sell you anything. We're not even trying to cajole you into being a little less anti-intellectual and wilfully ignorant.

                          We'd rather just slap you down with a concise well cited historical source, just to make it abundantly clear to everyone else that you're an ignorant intellectually lazy non-entity who has no business getting involved. Stick to your monosyllabic social media communications, replying to the latest Facebook memes, and saying all the classic lines from Reddit.

                          We're not trying to get you to change, honestly I think you're much more entertaining this way. Only semi-literate and clearly too big for your boots. Please continue.

                          • figaro@lemdro.id
                            ·
                            1 year ago

                            🤷‍♂️ it's all good my dude. If you don't want to learn how to communicate your message better, it's not my problem.

                    • ShimmeringKoi [comrade/them]
                      ·
                      edit-2
                      1 year ago

                      So what I'm getting is that you need to be sat down in front of a screen and have things explained to you in short, simple sentences, or else you panic and bolt.

                      • PatFusty@lemm.ee
                        ·
                        1 year ago

                        You make it seem like theres a problem with that... i didnt come to a social media to read a textbook

                        • boboblaw [he/him, they/them]
                          ·
                          1 year ago

                          No you come to social media to jump into threads about complex topics like history, philosophy, and politics...and then engage only thru simple thought-terminating cliches.

                          When someone quotes a relevant passage from a history book, you arrogantly dismiss it for being completely inappropriate for a "social media" site. What is appropriate here, of course, is you weighing in on these complex topics with the correct form of communication -- an incoherent series of monosyllabic words strung together.

                          Now that is productive communication.

                          I wish you luck on your continuing mission to convince yourself that you're the articulate master of communication here, actually.

        • Tankiedesantski [he/him]
          ·
          1 year ago

          You are wasting your time shitposting on social media. Your time means nothing. I respect neither it, nor you.

                • Tankiedesantski [he/him]
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  No, I'm just amused that you consistently put so much effort into decrying reading. Much more so than just doing the reading.

                  • figaro@lemdro.id
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    I'm putting time into supporting good communication. Telling someone you don't respect them or their time is also not an effective way to communicate either btw. Thanks for showing your cards though.

                    I'm gonna go touch some grass now, good luck with stuff

                  • PatFusty@lemm.ee
                    ·
                    edit-2
                    1 year ago

                    Honest question, do hexbears look out for other hexbear comments so you guys can slap eachother in the ass? Ive never seen a hexbear comment on its own where it was <2 hexbears in a comment chain.

                    • 420blazeit69 [he/him]
                      ·
                      1 year ago

                      You've just never seen the results of making a post other people agree with

                      • PatFusty@lemm.ee
                        ·
                        1 year ago

                        Only people here agreeing is other hexbears. Like a hive of bees you guys rage out at others and then wonder why people dont like you.

                        • boboblaw [he/him, they/them]
                          ·
                          1 year ago

                          Lol there's way more of us than there are of you anti-reading shitheads. And of course when I see such aggressive anti-intellectual bullshit, I feel compelled to mock the moron who's lauding the virtues of being moronic.

                    • Tankiedesantski [he/him]
                      ·
                      1 year ago

                      As bots residing in the basement of the Lubyanka Building, we are algorithmically drawn to each other like birds to a flock.

        • raven [he/him]
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          On Hexbear we regularly bully each other into reading entire books when someone has a bad take. This is mild.

          11 paragraphs is like one single page, maybe two.

            • boboblaw [he/him, they/them]
              ·
              1 year ago

              Educate yourself or shut the fuck up. Otherwise, don't act surprised when you're ridiculed for constantly voicing worthless thoughts.

              • figaro@lemdro.id
                ·
                1 year ago

                In this case, I'm just saying throwing 11 paragraphs of some random essay isn't a good way to communicate. I'm all for education.

                • ElChapoDeChapo [he/him, comrade/them]
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  Someone else already said that the last 2 paragraphs are basically a summary of the whole book, try reading those and see if the other 9 interest you

                  • figaro@lemdro.id
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    Cool. I imagine I would agree with a lot of what it says. I haven't been talking about the contents of the writing though. The only point I'm trying to make in this entire thing is that copying and pasting 11 paragraphs is bad communication.

            • raven [he/him]
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              It would be good for you too. I see less whining about having to read two pages in 5th grade classrooms.

              But in fact you don't have to! No one is forcing you to engage.