Excerpt from Michael Parenti's Blackshirts and Reds
Some leftists and others fall back on the old stereotype of power hungry Reds who pursue power for powers sake without regard for actual social goals. If true, one wonders why, in country after country, these Reds side with the poor and powerless often at great risk and sacrifice to themselves, rather than reaping the rewards that
come with serving the well-placed.
For decades, many left-leaning writers and speakers in the United States have felt obliged to establish their credibility by indulging in anticommunist and anti-Soviet genuflection, seemingly unable to give a talk or write an article or book review on whatever political subject without injecting some anti-Red sideswipe. The intent was, and still is, to distance themselves from the Marxist-Leninist Left.
Adam Hochschild, a liberal writer and publisher, warned those on the Left who might be lackadaisical about condemning existing communist societies that they "weaken their credibility" (Guardian, 5/23/84). In other words, to be credible opponents of the cold war, we first had to join in cold war condemnations of communist societies. Ronald Radosh urged that the peace movement purge itself of communists so that it not be accused of being communist (Guardian, 3/16/83). If I understand Radosh: To save ourselves from anticommunist witchhunts, we should ourselves become witchhunters.
Purging the Left of communists became a longstanding practice, having injurious effects on various progressive causes. For instance, in 1949 some twelve unions were ousted from the CIO because they had Reds in their leadership. The purge reduced CIO membership by some 1.7 million and seriously weakened its recruitment drives and political clout. In the late 1940s, to avoid being "smeared" as Reds, Americans for Democratic Action (ADA), a supposedly progressive group, became one of the most vocally anticommunist organizations.
The strategy did not work. ADA and others on the Left were still attacked for being communist or soft on communism by those on the Right. Then and now, many on the Left have failed to realize that those who fight for social change on behalf of the less-privileged elements of society will be Red-baited by conservative elites whether they are communists or not. For ruling interests, it makes little difference whether their wealth and power is challenged by "communist subversives" or "loyal American liberals." All are lumped together as more or less equally abhorrent.
Even when attacking the Right, left critics cannot pass up an opportunity to flash their anticommunist credentials. So Mark
Green writes in a criticism of President Ronald Reagan that "when presented with a situation that challenges his conservative catechism, like an unyielding Marxist-Leninist, [Reagan] will change not his mind but the facts." While professing a dedication to fighting dogmatism "both of the Right and Left," individuals who perform such de rigueur genuflections reinforce the anticommunist dogma. Red-baiting leftists contributed their share to the climate of hostility that has given U.S. leaders such a free hand in waging hot and cold wars against communist countries and which even today makes a progressive or even liberal agenda difficult to promote.
A prototypic Red-basher who pretended to be on the Left was George Orwell. In the middle of World War II, as the Soviet Union was fighting for its life against the Nazi invaders at Stalingrad, Orwell announced that a "willingness to criticize Russia and Stalin is the test of intellectual honesty. It is the only thing that from a literary intellectual's point of view is really dangerous" (Monthly Review, 5/83). Safely ensconced within a virulently anticommunist society, Orwell (with Orwellian doublethink) characterized the condemnation of communism as a lonely courageous act of defiance. Today, his ideological progeny are still at it, offering themselves as intrepid left critics of the Left, waging a valiant struggle
against imaginary Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist hordes.
Sorely lacking within the U.S. Left is any rational evaluation of the Soviet Union, a nation that endured a protracted civil war and a multinational foreign invasion in the very first years of its existence, and that two decades later threw back and destroyed the Nazi beast at enormous cost to itself. In the three decades after the Bolshevik revolution, the Soviets made industrial advances equal to what capitalism took a century to accomplish—while feeding and schooling their children rather than working them fourteen hours a day as capitalist industrialists did and still do in many parts of the world. And
the Soviet Union, along with Bulgaria, the German Democratic Republic, and Cuba, provided vital assistance to national liberation movements in countries around the world, including Nelson Mandela's African National Congress in South Africa.
Left anticommunists remained studiously unimpressed by the dramatic gains won by masses of previously impoverished people under communism. Some were even scornful of such accomplishments. I recall how in Burlington Vermont, in 1971, the noted anticommunist anarchist, Murray Bookchin, derisively referred to my concern for "the poor little children who got fed under communism" (his words).
Those of us who refused to join in the Soviet bashing were branded by left anticommunists as "Soviet apologists" and
"Stalinists," even if we disliked Stalin and his autocratic system of rule and believed there were things seriously wrong with existing Soviet society. Our real sin was that unlike many on the Left we refused to uncritically swallow U.S. media propaganda about communist societies. Instead, we maintained that, aside from the well-publicized deficiencies and injustices, there were positive features about existing communist systems that were worth preserving, that improved the lives of hundreds of millions of people in meaningful and humanizing ways. This claim had a decidedly unsettling effect
on left anticommunists who themselves could not utter a positive word about any communist society (except possibly Cuba) and could not lend a tolerant or even courteous ear to anyone who did.
Saturated by anticommunist orthodoxy, most U.S. leftists have practiced a left McCarthyism against people who did have something positive to say about existing communism, excluding them from participation in conferences, advisory boards, political endorsements, and left publications. Like conservatives, left anticommunists tolerated nothing less than a blanket condemnation of the Soviet Union as a Stalinist monstrosity and a Leninist moral aberration.
The pure (libertarian) socialists' ideological anticipations remain untainted by existing practice. They do not explain how the manifold functions of a revolutionary society would be organized, how external attack and internal sabotage would be thwarted, how bureaucracy would be avoided, scarce resources allocated, policy differences settled, priorities set, and production and distribution conducted. Instead, they offer vague statements about how the workers themselves will directly own and control the means of production and will arrive at their own solutions through creative struggle. No surprise then that the pure socialists support every revolution except the ones that succeed.
Fun fact: the word count of the people shidding and pissing and cumming about how long this excerpt is now exceeds the word count of the excerpt itself.
Gonna paste a comment I made a couple weeks ago. Seems relevant again, both because of the accusation levied against hexbears and also because Parenti.
Oh a hexbear. ... You lot only have overly simplistic takes.
When we respond to blatant ignorance with carefully chosen wording, backing up our position with citations and links, and calmly explaining the nuance of complex geopolitical realities, we get accused of "always throwing walls of text at people." When we answer that same ignorance with short and pithy responses, we "only have simplistic takes."
There's no winning with you simple-minded dronies, but I guess there never is when one side can just make shit up that fits their vibes-based outlook on the world.
Do you guys actually write this shit out or are you ctrl + v from some source? Every time i see hexbears they write up a whole journal article as a comment that most likely nobody is going to read.
...I said "Excerpt from Michael Parenti's Blackshirts and Reds," because it's, uhh, an excerpt from Michael Parenti'sBlackshirts and Reds.
I copied it from a pdf of the book I cited because I found it relevant. Really, if you want to fully understand how fascism and communism are different and not comparable, you should read the whole book. I know, I probably sound like a crazy person for suggesting that people read a whole entire book to better understand politics instead of going off vibes, but that's just how I roll I guess.
Hi, I'm not @boboblaw@hexbear.net, but it seems you're having some difficulty understanding where you are right now. I understand object permeance and talking to multiple people may be confusing for some. What you are on right now is called a Public Internet Forum. This is a type of forum where anyone with an internet connection and a functioning web browser can participate in all manner of discussion. In this discussion in particular, I was making a joke about how dumb you are taking a intellectual posture on the internet while clearly having absolutely nothing of remote intellectual interest backing it. Now you might be saying "Now wait a minute here Mr. Chungus, but you aren't the person I was talking to earlier!"
And you know what internet user? You're right. With the magic of the internet, any number of internet users can communicate with you, not just one! You can tell when a different internet user is communicating with you by checking either their Profile Picture or their Username, which are distinct indicators of who you're talking to
If you have any other questions about using the internet, feel free to ask them now
I think a part of good, honest discourse is recognizing and respecting the time of the person you are talking with.
If you are going to respond with 11 paragraphs quoted from a book, you should preempt it by saying something to diffuse it. Something like, "oh man, this is super long but actually quite beneficial. I wrote a tldr though at the end in case you don't have time to read the whole thing."
I use this site while I'm at work. I literally don't have time to read all of that lol.
That's why I put it behind a spoiler to avoid clogging up the thread.
I put in the time of reading the book in the first place, then I remembered a relevant bit so I went back and looked through the book to try to find it, read through it again to make sure it was actually relevant, edited it because it was from a pdf and had wierd line breaks, and considered which parts were relevant to include and whether I should omit some of the examples. I cited that book not only because it expressed what I wanted to say, but also because it's written in a modern style that's easier to read than many socialist works.
I guess I'm just used to an environment on Hexbear where people are more receptive towards reading relevant theory and some of us actually read not just posts and excerpts, but whole entire books. Maybe I should've just posted Pig Poop Balls instead.
Say what you want, 11 paragraphs is objectively longer than what most people want to read on social media. 11 paragraphs is just annoying and unproductive.
You can see I'm right because literally everyone who isn't a hexbear is like wtf is this. It is bad communication.
That would be accepting it as good communication. My point is to not do that, because it is not good communication. I agree with you though, I could have.
You don't have to click the spoiler. It's literally one line you can easily scroll past, but some people who have more time might find it interesting.
Anyway it's a response to a pretty low-effort, unoriginal meme, the whole "proportional time" thing cuts both ways. I've added more to making these comments a meaningful, intelligent dialogue than OP did.
I'm putting time into supporting good communication. Telling someone you don't respect them or their time is also not an effective way to communicate either btw. Thanks for showing your cards though.
I'm gonna go touch some grass now, good luck with stuff
Honest question, do hexbears look out for other hexbear comments so you guys can slap eachother in the ass? Ive never seen a hexbear comment on its own where it was <2 hexbears in a comment chain.
Cool. I imagine I would agree with a lot of what it says. I haven't been talking about the contents of the writing though. The only point I'm trying to make in this entire thing is that copying and pasting 11 paragraphs is bad communication.
Excerpt from Michael Parenti's Blackshirts and Reds
Some leftists and others fall back on the old stereotype of power hungry Reds who pursue power for powers sake without regard for actual social goals. If true, one wonders why, in country after country, these Reds side with the poor and powerless often at great risk and sacrifice to themselves, rather than reaping the rewards that come with serving the well-placed.
For decades, many left-leaning writers and speakers in the United States have felt obliged to establish their credibility by indulging in anticommunist and anti-Soviet genuflection, seemingly unable to give a talk or write an article or book review on whatever political subject without injecting some anti-Red sideswipe. The intent was, and still is, to distance themselves from the Marxist-Leninist Left.
Adam Hochschild, a liberal writer and publisher, warned those on the Left who might be lackadaisical about condemning existing communist societies that they "weaken their credibility" (Guardian, 5/23/84). In other words, to be credible opponents of the cold war, we first had to join in cold war condemnations of communist societies. Ronald Radosh urged that the peace movement purge itself of communists so that it not be accused of being communist (Guardian, 3/16/83). If I understand Radosh: To save ourselves from anticommunist witchhunts, we should ourselves become witchhunters.
Purging the Left of communists became a longstanding practice, having injurious effects on various progressive causes. For instance, in 1949 some twelve unions were ousted from the CIO because they had Reds in their leadership. The purge reduced CIO membership by some 1.7 million and seriously weakened its recruitment drives and political clout. In the late 1940s, to avoid being "smeared" as Reds, Americans for Democratic Action (ADA), a supposedly progressive group, became one of the most vocally anticommunist organizations.
The strategy did not work. ADA and others on the Left were still attacked for being communist or soft on communism by those on the Right. Then and now, many on the Left have failed to realize that those who fight for social change on behalf of the less-privileged elements of society will be Red-baited by conservative elites whether they are communists or not. For ruling interests, it makes little difference whether their wealth and power is challenged by "communist subversives" or "loyal American liberals." All are lumped together as more or less equally abhorrent.
Even when attacking the Right, left critics cannot pass up an opportunity to flash their anticommunist credentials. So Mark Green writes in a criticism of President Ronald Reagan that "when presented with a situation that challenges his conservative catechism, like an unyielding Marxist-Leninist, [Reagan] will change not his mind but the facts." While professing a dedication to fighting dogmatism "both of the Right and Left," individuals who perform such de rigueur genuflections reinforce the anticommunist dogma. Red-baiting leftists contributed their share to the climate of hostility that has given U.S. leaders such a free hand in waging hot and cold wars against communist countries and which even today makes a progressive or even liberal agenda difficult to promote.
A prototypic Red-basher who pretended to be on the Left was George Orwell. In the middle of World War II, as the Soviet Union was fighting for its life against the Nazi invaders at Stalingrad, Orwell announced that a "willingness to criticize Russia and Stalin is the test of intellectual honesty. It is the only thing that from a literary intellectual's point of view is really dangerous" (Monthly Review, 5/83). Safely ensconced within a virulently anticommunist society, Orwell (with Orwellian doublethink) characterized the condemnation of communism as a lonely courageous act of defiance. Today, his ideological progeny are still at it, offering themselves as intrepid left critics of the Left, waging a valiant struggle against imaginary Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist hordes.
Sorely lacking within the U.S. Left is any rational evaluation of the Soviet Union, a nation that endured a protracted civil war and a multinational foreign invasion in the very first years of its existence, and that two decades later threw back and destroyed the Nazi beast at enormous cost to itself. In the three decades after the Bolshevik revolution, the Soviets made industrial advances equal to what capitalism took a century to accomplish—while feeding and schooling their children rather than working them fourteen hours a day as capitalist industrialists did and still do in many parts of the world. And the Soviet Union, along with Bulgaria, the German Democratic Republic, and Cuba, provided vital assistance to national liberation movements in countries around the world, including Nelson Mandela's African National Congress in South Africa.
Left anticommunists remained studiously unimpressed by the dramatic gains won by masses of previously impoverished people under communism. Some were even scornful of such accomplishments. I recall how in Burlington Vermont, in 1971, the noted anticommunist anarchist, Murray Bookchin, derisively referred to my concern for "the poor little children who got fed under communism" (his words).
Those of us who refused to join in the Soviet bashing were branded by left anticommunists as "Soviet apologists" and "Stalinists," even if we disliked Stalin and his autocratic system of rule and believed there were things seriously wrong with existing Soviet society. Our real sin was that unlike many on the Left we refused to uncritically swallow U.S. media propaganda about communist societies. Instead, we maintained that, aside from the well-publicized deficiencies and injustices, there were positive features about existing communist systems that were worth preserving, that improved the lives of hundreds of millions of people in meaningful and humanizing ways. This claim had a decidedly unsettling effect on left anticommunists who themselves could not utter a positive word about any communist society (except possibly Cuba) and could not lend a tolerant or even courteous ear to anyone who did.
Saturated by anticommunist orthodoxy, most U.S. leftists have practiced a left McCarthyism against people who did have something positive to say about existing communism, excluding them from participation in conferences, advisory boards, political endorsements, and left publications. Like conservatives, left anticommunists tolerated nothing less than a blanket condemnation of the Soviet Union as a Stalinist monstrosity and a Leninist moral aberration.
Related excerpt:
Fun fact: the word count of the people shidding and pissing and cumming about how long this excerpt is now exceeds the word count of the excerpt itself.
Libs out here proudly being like
Gonna paste a comment I made a couple weeks ago. Seems relevant again, both because of the accusation levied against hexbears and also because Parenti.
Gonna paste a comment i made yesterday. Seems relevant again, both because of the accusation levied against deez nuts and also because why not.
Doubt
TLDR
Do you guys actually write this shit out or are you ctrl + v from some source? Every time i see hexbears they write up a whole journal article as a comment that most likely nobody is going to read.
...I said "Excerpt from Michael Parenti's Blackshirts and Reds," because it's, uhh, an excerpt from Michael Parenti's Blackshirts and Reds.
I copied it from a pdf of the book I cited because I found it relevant. Really, if you want to fully understand how fascism and communism are different and not comparable, you should read the whole book. I know, I probably sound like a crazy person for suggesting that people read a whole entire book to better understand politics instead of going off vibes, but that's just how I roll I guess.
Being too lazy and uncurious to read a handful of paragraphs is not something to be proud of
Say it with me now
No investigation....
Removed by mod
deleted by creator
It's a bit fucking stupid to ask that question through the medium of the written word, no?
It's probably still less stupid than asking whether the clearly labelled excerpt from a clearly labelled book and author is copied "from some source"
Agreed there
No he wasn't asking it seriously obviously
Then they are an idiot for saying "serious question" then, aren't they?
deleted by creator
At least I know what serious means haha
I bet you are one of those removed thats says literally but means figuratively.
deleted by creator
Nope, I was born and raised in central america so I am clearly just a standard illiterate brown person.
deleted by creator
The funniest part is that it is true
you can fucking read, stop being obtuse
Removed by mod
you know what, im done with you worthless federation fucks
Go ahead and kill yourself, your existence hasn't improved the lives of anyone
It's a quote from a book they read. You should try reading books sometime, it's cool.
If you want a summary, the last two paragraphs they quoted could serve as one.
Are you asking if she copied and pasted an excerpt from a book? Yes, of course she did. Lol
Edit: If I took a video of myself retyping it or writing it by hand, would you read it then? I'll do it.
Just read it ffs you libs are just the laziest
Im actually a cracker.. no wait im a fascist... or am I a conservative?? I dont know you hexbears call me everything i dont remember where we left off
You'd be better able to define what you are on ideological grounds if you'd read
Why not all of the above, and a dedicated idiot to boot?
Sorry can you dumb that down for me please
I probably couldn't stoop down that low if I tried
I dont remember talking to you.. are you the same person with multiple accounts?
Hi, I'm not @boboblaw@hexbear.net, but it seems you're having some difficulty understanding where you are right now. I understand object permeance and talking to multiple people may be confusing for some. What you are on right now is called a Public Internet Forum. This is a type of forum where anyone with an internet connection and a functioning web browser can participate in all manner of discussion. In this discussion in particular, I was making a joke about how dumb you are taking a intellectual posture on the internet while clearly having absolutely nothing of remote intellectual interest backing it. Now you might be saying "Now wait a minute here Mr. Chungus, but you aren't the person I was talking to earlier!"
And you know what internet user? You're right. With the magic of the internet, any number of internet users can communicate with you, not just one! You can tell when a different internet user is communicating with you by checking either their Profile Picture or their Username, which are distinct indicators of who you're talking to
If you have any other questions about using the internet, feel free to ask them now
Thank you, and have a wonderful day
It’s like 2 sentences. Your post is practically the same length
It's 11 paragraphs -- click to expand.
Strange it’s only showing the first 2 sentences on the app I’m using
I think a part of good, honest discourse is recognizing and respecting the time of the person you are talking with.
If you are going to respond with 11 paragraphs quoted from a book, you should preempt it by saying something to diffuse it. Something like, "oh man, this is super long but actually quite beneficial. I wrote a tldr though at the end in case you don't have time to read the whole thing."
I use this site while I'm at work. I literally don't have time to read all of that lol.
That's why I put it behind a spoiler to avoid clogging up the thread.
I put in the time of reading the book in the first place, then I remembered a relevant bit so I went back and looked through the book to try to find it, read through it again to make sure it was actually relevant, edited it because it was from a pdf and had wierd line breaks, and considered which parts were relevant to include and whether I should omit some of the examples. I cited that book not only because it expressed what I wanted to say, but also because it's written in a modern style that's easier to read than many socialist works.
I guess I'm just used to an environment on Hexbear where people are more receptive towards reading relevant theory and some of us actually read not just posts and excerpts, but whole entire books. Maybe I should've just posted Pig Poop Balls instead.
I don't doubt that you were doing it in good faith, but the execution was still in such a way that it is off-putting.
You have nothing of substance to contribute. Just "waaaaah your comment is more than a few sentences."
Say what you want, 11 paragraphs is objectively longer than what most people want to read on social media. 11 paragraphs is just annoying and unproductive.
You can see I'm right because literally everyone who isn't a hexbear is like wtf is this. It is bad communication.
In the time you've spent pissing and moaning about that comment you could have read it five times over.
That would be accepting it as good communication. My point is to not do that, because it is not good communication. I agree with you though, I could have.
You don't have to click the spoiler. It's literally one line you can easily scroll past, but some people who have more time might find it interesting.
Anyway it's a response to a pretty low-effort, unoriginal meme, the whole "proportional time" thing cuts both ways. I've added more to making these comments a meaningful, intelligent dialogue than OP did.
I will respectfully disagree that throwing in 11 paragraphs of some text without explanation adds to a meaningful dialogue
I will respectfully disagree that you can make that evaluation without knowing what the text actually says.
I get that the text might have some good and important meaning, but the format the meaning was delivered in spoils it.
Like, I would love it if someone gave me a million dollars. But do I want the million dollars in pennies? Not really lol
deleted by creator
You are wasting your time shitposting on social media. Your time means nothing. I respect neither it, nor you.
Likewise 😘
Oh lmao it's the Topic Decider.
Was I deciding a topic just then?
No, I'm just amused that you consistently put so much effort into decrying reading. Much more so than just doing the reading.
I'm putting time into supporting good communication. Telling someone you don't respect them or their time is also not an effective way to communicate either btw. Thanks for showing your cards though.
I'm gonna go touch some grass now, good luck with stuff
Honest question, do hexbears look out for other hexbear comments so you guys can slap eachother in the ass? Ive never seen a hexbear comment on its own where it was <2 hexbears in a comment chain.
On Hexbear we regularly bully each other into reading entire books when someone has a bad take. This is mild.
11 paragraphs is like one single page, maybe two.
Good for you guys
Educate yourself or shut the fuck up. Otherwise, don't act surprised when you're ridiculed for constantly voicing worthless thoughts.
educate yourself and everyone around you
In this case, I'm just saying throwing 11 paragraphs of some random essay isn't a good way to communicate. I'm all for education.
Someone else already said that the last 2 paragraphs are basically a summary of the whole book, try reading those and see if the other 9 interest you
Cool. I imagine I would agree with a lot of what it says. I haven't been talking about the contents of the writing though. The only point I'm trying to make in this entire thing is that copying and pasting 11 paragraphs is bad communication.
It would be good for you too. I see less whining about having to read two pages in 5th grade classrooms.
But in fact you don't have to! No one is forcing you to engage.