Under Deng China invaded Vietnam, supported the Khmer Rouge, helped the US against the USSR with Operation Cyclone, supported the South Africa-backed UNITA and FNLA, and didn't re-normalize relations with the USSR until pizza man visited. To characterize the critique of China as irrational ultra-leftism is to argue in bad faith.
And is China still doing any of those things? No.
Was I talking about anything else but the reforms? No.
Are Ultras still targeting modern day China? Yes.
My man I am not arguing with you about Chinas foreign policy in past decades. It was absolute dogshit. But it is not like ultras attack modern day China for past mistakes in foreign policy. Heck it's not even unusual for Ultras to support the Khmer Rouge or the Shining Path so I really don't know where you are going with this.
As i said earlier in this thread, the fact that these things happened is justification enough to question China's commitment to socialism. In spite of his abandonment of Stalin, Khrushchev didn't ditch Cuba and back a Batista color revolution or something. Just because they aren't doing these specific monstrous things now doesn't mean it's ridiculous to question the CPC. What sense does it make to separate the reforms from the policies that literally helped the United States continue its imperialist hegemony?
These are crimes on a massive scale that helped contribute to the collapse of the socialist bloc and to the period of vicious reaction we currently live in. They aren't just 'mistakes', and if you understand them as seriously as they should be it makes sense to question the legitimacy of the socialist project
Yeah… that’s why I see Deng as a complicated figure, who wasn’t the best, but didn’t totally deviate from socialism. Non-revolution-exporting and integrating into the world market to benefit from capitalism were beneficial in the long run, though.
I agree with the first sentence and disagree with the latter. The world capitalist system was in decline by the end of the 1980s, the USSR was successful in exporting revolution even as they were actively impeded by China, and the socialist bloc walled off a vast portion of the world to capitalist exploitation. The Soviet Union's fall gave the West a shot in the arm that is only wearing off today. These things are awful for humanity in the long run, but the CPC's continued governance is likely the best of a terrible situation atm.
Under Deng China invaded Vietnam, supported the Khmer Rouge, helped the US against the USSR with Operation Cyclone, supported the South Africa-backed UNITA and FNLA, and didn't re-normalize relations with the USSR until pizza man visited. To characterize the critique of China as irrational ultra-leftism is to argue in bad faith.
And is China still doing any of those things? No. Was I talking about anything else but the reforms? No. Are Ultras still targeting modern day China? Yes.
My man I am not arguing with you about Chinas foreign policy in past decades. It was absolute dogshit. But it is not like ultras attack modern day China for past mistakes in foreign policy. Heck it's not even unusual for Ultras to support the Khmer Rouge or the Shining Path so I really don't know where you are going with this.
As i said earlier in this thread, the fact that these things happened is justification enough to question China's commitment to socialism. In spite of his abandonment of Stalin, Khrushchev didn't ditch Cuba and back a Batista color revolution or something. Just because they aren't doing these specific monstrous things now doesn't mean it's ridiculous to question the CPC. What sense does it make to separate the reforms from the policies that literally helped the United States continue its imperialist hegemony?
pointing out foreign policy mistakes is significantly different from claiming that deng executed a coup that made china capitalist
These are crimes on a massive scale that helped contribute to the collapse of the socialist bloc and to the period of vicious reaction we currently live in. They aren't just 'mistakes', and if you understand them as seriously as they should be it makes sense to question the legitimacy of the socialist project
Yeah… that’s why I see Deng as a complicated figure, who wasn’t the best, but didn’t totally deviate from socialism. Non-revolution-exporting and integrating into the world market to benefit from capitalism were beneficial in the long run, though.
I agree with the first sentence and disagree with the latter. The world capitalist system was in decline by the end of the 1980s, the USSR was successful in exporting revolution even as they were actively impeded by China, and the socialist bloc walled off a vast portion of the world to capitalist exploitation. The Soviet Union's fall gave the West a shot in the arm that is only wearing off today. These things are awful for humanity in the long run, but the CPC's continued governance is likely the best of a terrible situation atm.
Fair, it may not have been best for the world, but the people of China are doing decent right now.