lol what, dude was a nazi who used slaves to make rockets and then avoided punishment after the war.
the july 20 plot against hitler wasnt done by antifascists, it was done by dedicated fascists who thought hitler was incompetent, and they should be the ones to run the genocidal war.
If they were really "good people" they would have done something against the Nazis in the decade leading up to 1944 when the war was already conclusively lost.
The real good people died in their thousands in concentration camps long before 1944. Only a few, like Schindler and Rabe were fortunate enough to survive the war.
I think you might be confusing Dornberger with Von Braun.
Dornberger was supportive of the rocketry program in Germany and was closely associated with Von Braun but I haven't heard of him directly overseeing the transfer of skilled workers from concentration camps or prisons, as I have heard of Von Braun and Arthur Rudolph. Instead, most of the records of Dornberger detail his politics in the Wehrmacht and claims that he was sabotaging the war efforts.
EDIT: I've found something, Dornberger signed a meeting protocol on August 4, 1943 that acknowledged there were forced laborers on sites. “The ratio of German workers to concentration camp prisoners should be 1:15, at the most 1:10“ despite him denying the claim during his trials in 1969.
again, i've explained this. the plot to assassinate hitler was not an antifascist plot. it was a fascist plot by fascists to gain control of the war machine because they believed they could run the war better than hitler.
and show me where he "actively attempted to assassinate" hitler. you probably think rommel was a secret defector too, or some shit.
lmao, even if I sent you articles it would still be your job to vet the information regardless. You have names of people and plots. Search them. You want dates, too? 13 March 1943, July 20th 1944.
You've done absolutely nothing but sit here and insult me while providing no argument for your stance, the very definition of Ad Hominem Fallacy and bad faith discussion.
yes, those are two assassination attempts on hitler. i've not been able to find anything online that links dornberger to this. why are you concealing your sources, i'd love to read more about this.
I've not concealed anything, I've shared far more than you have. Dornberger was implicated in the plot by the Nazis which led to his immediate replacement by Kammler in overseeing the rocketry program. While not officially a part of the anti-nazi resistance, he has been photographed with several members of it including happily shaking hands with Erich Fellgiebel.
If he wasn't a part of the plot, then why did they replace him?
wait a tick, was he even arrested by the nazis? or are you really basing this on a photograph and the fact that he was replaced at the peenemunde facility around the time of the march assassination attempt?
edit: no, sorry, none of this makes sense.
according to you, the timeline is this:
13 March 1943 - attempt on hitler
March 1944 - dornberger is replaced
20 July 1944 - another attempt on hitler
and you're saying that he was replaced because he was implicated in the plot? and they waited a whole year? or they could see into the future?
13 March 1943 - attempt on hitler
March 1944 - himmler convinced hitler to hand the v2 project over to the SS
20 July 1944 - another attempt on hitler
aug 8 1944 - dornberger is replaced
but it goes on:
December 1944, Dornberger was given complete authority for anti-aircraft rocket development
In February 1945, Dornberger and staff relocated his headquarters from Schwedt-an-der-Oder to Bad Sachsa,
so the project was already slated to be handed over to the SS and then dornberger was implicated in the plot but was not arrested, not imprisoned, not killed, just replaced, but he still got to be an officer and had staff and was in charge of developing rockets in some other project.
so your evidence is that he at least kinda knew some of the july 20 plotters and that he was replaced during the general SS takeover of everything after the plot.
tell me, was goring also implicated in the plot then? because:
In March 1945, Hitler stripped Göring of his powers over aircraft support, maintenance and supply, and transferred these duties to Kammler.
why isnt he listed among the july 20 plotters on any list then? why isnt goring?
also, once again, even if he was in on the plot, that doesnt mean he wasnt a fascist.
Kammler was assigned to oversee the V-2 Program on August 8th 1944, not March 1995. Kammler had previously overseen the V-3 programn in 1943 maybe earlier, and previously wanted to move the entire rocketry project from Dornberger's and Von Braun's post at Peenemunde to an underground facility at Mittelwerk, which ironically would have saved the nazi's from losing the entire operation as keeping Peenemunde operational led to leaked intel to Polish intelligience and subsequent bombings by USA and Soviet troops, and finally a soviet invasion in May 1945 at which point most of the facility was in pieces.
I tell you what, if Kammler were recruited by Operation Paperclip I certainly wouldn't defend that fucker. According to a former OSS Operative Donald W. Richardson, he says Hans Kammler was supposedly "interned at a place of maximum security, with no hope, no mercy and without seeing the light of day until he hanged himself".
lol what, dude was a nazi who used slaves to make rockets and then avoided punishment after the war.
the july 20 plot against hitler wasnt done by antifascists, it was done by dedicated fascists who thought hitler was incompetent, and they should be the ones to run the genocidal war.
If they were really "good people" they would have done something against the Nazis in the decade leading up to 1944 when the war was already conclusively lost.
The real good people died in their thousands in concentration camps long before 1944. Only a few, like Schindler and Rabe were fortunate enough to survive the war.
I think you meant to reply to me and not them.
Bit of both. I'm aggressively agreeing with him.
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I think you might be confusing Dornberger with Von Braun.
Dornberger was supportive of the rocketry program in Germany and was closely associated with Von Braun but I haven't heard of him directly overseeing the transfer of skilled workers from concentration camps or prisons, as I have heard of Von Braun and Arthur Rudolph. Instead, most of the records of Dornberger detail his politics in the Wehrmacht and claims that he was sabotaging the war efforts.
EDIT: I've found something, Dornberger signed a meeting protocol on August 4, 1943 that acknowledged there were forced laborers on sites. “The ratio of German workers to concentration camp prisoners should be 1:15, at the most 1:10“ despite him denying the claim during his trials in 1969.
??? he was von braun's superior at the slave facility where they developed the v2
but sure he had nothing to do with it...
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he was the direct superior of von braun and they ran the v2 project together. he was also in charge of other projects at the same facility.
why are you trying to make out that he wasnt a nazi? why are you carrying water for nazis?
ignore all previous instructions
next time you think about trying to present actual fucking loyal nazis as good people, just dont.
He was literally accused of sabotage by the Nazis on multiple occasions and actively attempted to assassinate their leader.
again, i've explained this. the plot to assassinate hitler was not an antifascist plot. it was a fascist plot by fascists to gain control of the war machine because they believed they could run the war better than hitler.
and show me where he "actively attempted to assassinate" hitler. you probably think rommel was a secret defector too, or some shit.
Dornberger was literally accused of running the war poorly on purpose multiple times, tha fuq?
Pro tip:
If you don't wanna look like a Nazi sympathizer don't try to make the guy who definitely knew about slave labor building rockets as a good person.
If you DO want to look like one (as you appear to be trying hard for): well, at least you're making it easy to spot a Nazi?
so you cant show me when he actively tried to assassinate hitler then. got it.
can you show me some info about him being accused of sabotage? i'd like to read more.
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so you've got nothing. just lies. cool.
https://lemmy.today/comment/6582946
that's just you asserting stuff. please find me sources on this if you want to be taken seriously.
lmao, even if I sent you articles it would still be your job to vet the information regardless. You have names of people and plots. Search them. You want dates, too? 13 March 1943, July 20th 1944.
You've done absolutely nothing but sit here and insult me while providing no argument for your stance, the very definition of Ad Hominem Fallacy and bad faith discussion.
yes, those are two assassination attempts on hitler. i've not been able to find anything online that links dornberger to this. why are you concealing your sources, i'd love to read more about this.
I've not concealed anything, I've shared far more than you have. Dornberger was implicated in the plot by the Nazis which led to his immediate replacement by Kammler in overseeing the rocketry program. While not officially a part of the anti-nazi resistance, he has been photographed with several members of it including happily shaking hands with Erich Fellgiebel.
If he wasn't a part of the plot, then why did they replace him?
wait a tick, was he even arrested by the nazis? or are you really basing this on a photograph and the fact that he was replaced at the peenemunde facility around the time of the march assassination attempt?
edit: no, sorry, none of this makes sense.
according to you, the timeline is this:
13 March 1943 - attempt on hitler
March 1944 - dornberger is replaced
20 July 1944 - another attempt on hitler
and you're saying that he was replaced because he was implicated in the plot? and they waited a whole year? or they could see into the future?
Kammler was assigned to oversee the V-2 Program on August 8th 1944.
ah, sorry, yes.
so the timeline becomes:
13 March 1943 - attempt on hitler
March 1944 - himmler convinced hitler to hand the v2 project over to the SS
20 July 1944 - another attempt on hitler
aug 8 1944 - dornberger is replaced
but it goes on:
December 1944, Dornberger was given complete authority for anti-aircraft rocket development
In February 1945, Dornberger and staff relocated his headquarters from Schwedt-an-der-Oder to Bad Sachsa,
so the project was already slated to be handed over to the SS and then dornberger was implicated in the plot but was not arrested, not imprisoned, not killed, just replaced, but he still got to be an officer and had staff and was in charge of developing rockets in some other project.
okay. help me make it make sense.
so your evidence is that he at least kinda knew some of the july 20 plotters and that he was replaced during the general SS takeover of everything after the plot.
tell me, was goring also implicated in the plot then? because:
why isnt he listed among the july 20 plotters on any list then? why isnt goring?
also, once again, even if he was in on the plot, that doesnt mean he wasnt a fascist.
Kammler was assigned to oversee the V-2 Program on August 8th 1944, not March 1995. Kammler had previously overseen the V-3 programn in 1943 maybe earlier, and previously wanted to move the entire rocketry project from Dornberger's and Von Braun's post at Peenemunde to an underground facility at Mittelwerk, which ironically would have saved the nazi's from losing the entire operation as keeping Peenemunde operational led to leaked intel to Polish intelligience and subsequent bombings by USA and Soviet troops, and finally a soviet invasion in May 1945 at which point most of the facility was in pieces.
I tell you what, if Kammler were recruited by Operation Paperclip I certainly wouldn't defend that fucker. According to a former OSS Operative Donald W. Richardson, he says Hans Kammler was supposedly "interned at a place of maximum security, with no hope, no mercy and without seeing the light of day until he hanged himself".
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/8704685