Honestly, having only really been taught the hero's journey concept as a narrative structure... What else really is there that doesn't wind up being mundane depictions of life in another world? How does one inject action that'd draw an eye or a mind into that?
For example, the popular young adult novel hunger games tells the story of the heroine’s journey as opposed to the hero’s journey.
There are great alternatives out there that aren’t explored as much as they’re supposed to because of these capitalist filters. Socialism being one of them.
Once there's people out of my house I'm gonna go through this vid; but on its face, wouldn't the heroine's journey be no different from the hero's journey save flipping the gender involved?
Oh, so you're talking more what would end up being a decon of the hero's journey, likely with a WHOLE lot of critique of the format it's deconstructing along the way. Kinda sounds like it'd be something Joss Whedon-adjacent if Joss Whedon wasn't a white guy
See I was taught that genres and narrative structures were two different things; so it sounds to me like you're just naming a bunch of genres and not frameworks for that genre
The hero’s journey is very problematic and reactionary. It is the story of the white man, with everything else being either obstacles or prizes. It’s a story of conquest.
And the real problem comes when we model our lives and policies off of the hero’s journey.
The propagation of the hero’s journey is part of the western propaganda model.
I'm not an expert on literature and storytelling, but I think we need to separate interpretation of a fact from a fact itself. The stories you mentioned exist before modern age, but The Hero's Journey is a modern interpretation. This interpretation is not without its fair share of criticisms.
Mahabharata is not a hero's tale , The 2 clans ended each other mostly , Kauravas died out and the Pandava princes went to the Himalayas because of the guilt where they died due to cold and hunger .
I have also watched journey to the West movie from China don't know how much it relates to the original classic. But it was also sad 🤣 , the boy hates the girl who loved him and gave upon her life to kill monkey King (Sun Wokong) , later the boy became a buddhist monk and came to India. Quite a fascinating movie 😁
There is absolute crapton of more or less loose intepretations of that story in east Asian popculture, even seemingly unrelated works can suddenly pop one or a lot of it.
I was absolutely amazed that the original monk existed and he secretly came to Nalanda to study buddhism and then he was grandly welcomed by the Chinese emperor. Well, I hope the monkey King story was taken up by Chinese scholars to spice things up 🤣, I mean who wouldn't love magic and wonders.
As long as the monomyth remains “A” story structure, and not “THE” story structure applicable to all stories and life itself, then it’s not problematic. But the fact is, this is the way that it’s being used. And so caution and analysis must be applied in applications of this story structure.
Very few (if any) anime that I've watched actually follow this pattern. Maybe it is more prevalent in the Western culture.
Writers are people, people are risk-adverse, so it makes sense that they generally prefer to fit the mold taught to them than to take risks and be creative.
Well I don't watch shonen so it's hard for me to judge. But how do you know shounen shows intentionally follow The Hero's Journey pattern or just happen to share some aspects? The one message that shounen likes to send is "work hard and be rewarded" (Japan is influenced by Confucian culture which values meritocracy). And due to the long running nature of anime shows, there must be multiple arcs, multiple challenges for the MC to overcome, and the MC will get stronger as a result of their hard work. This creates a "journey", but not necessarily The Hero's Journey™.
I have almost exclusively read shounen manga in the past. Chances are, if it was shounen and released between 2008 and 2015, I’ve read it.
It’s formulaic to the point where other satire anime will call out tropes associated with the genre, like Gintama.
Shounen manga starts with a great man that is at first under-estimated, but then is shown to have an exceptional talent or gains an exceptional power. A call to adventure is provided, usually when this talent or power is established. The hero will then meet a roadblock where they cannot pass, and they must train to gain more power. Usually multiple times. And the end is hastily and shittily concluded when the author is given very short notice to end the manga.
Better shit instead of the overdone hero’s journey bullshit
Honestly, having only really been taught the hero's journey concept as a narrative structure... What else really is there that doesn't wind up being mundane depictions of life in another world? How does one inject action that'd draw an eye or a mind into that?
For example, the popular young adult novel hunger games tells the story of the heroine’s journey as opposed to the hero’s journey.
There are great alternatives out there that aren’t explored as much as they’re supposed to because of these capitalist filters. Socialism being one of them.
Edit: recommended watching:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9zR4lWyVN8
Once there's people out of my house I'm gonna go through this vid; but on its face, wouldn't the heroine's journey be no different from the hero's journey save flipping the gender involved?
No, it means following the hero on his journey, becoming the hero’s prize, then being discontent with her position and setting out on her own journey.
Paraphrasing.
Oh, so you're talking more what would end up being a decon of the hero's journey, likely with a WHOLE lot of critique of the format it's deconstructing along the way. Kinda sounds like it'd be something Joss Whedon-adjacent if Joss Whedon wasn't a white guy
deleted by creator
Stuff like Shakespeare tragedies and rom coms are other narrative structures. Mystery and crime fiction is another one.
See I was taught that genres and narrative structures were two different things; so it sounds to me like you're just naming a bunch of genres and not frameworks for that genre
But I think the narrative structures common in those genres are different from the hero's journey. And they aren't mundane.
Hero's journey is actually fine, like half of most famous historical literature being exactly this.
Sort of nonsense. Joseph Campbell had one idea and crushed every story he could find to fit into it.
The hero’s journey is very problematic and reactionary. It is the story of the white man, with everything else being either obstacles or prizes. It’s a story of conquest.
And the real problem comes when we model our lives and policies off of the hero’s journey.
The propagation of the hero’s journey is part of the western propaganda model.
Recommended watching:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9zR4lWyVN8
TIL epos of Gilgamesh, Mahabharata or Journey to the West are reactionary stories about white men.
I'm not an expert on literature and storytelling, but I think we need to separate interpretation of a fact from a fact itself. The stories you mentioned exist before modern age, but The Hero's Journey is a modern interpretation. This interpretation is not without its fair share of criticisms.
Which is why blanket condemnation of entire genre or media is pointless.
Mahabharata is not a hero's tale , The 2 clans ended each other mostly , Kauravas died out and the Pandava princes went to the Himalayas because of the guilt where they died due to cold and hunger .
Well death is a relevant ending to the journey too, but i probably confused it with something else.
I have also watched journey to the West movie from China don't know how much it relates to the original classic. But it was also sad 🤣 , the boy hates the girl who loved him and gave upon her life to kill monkey King (Sun Wokong) , later the boy became a buddhist monk and came to India. Quite a fascinating movie 😁
There is absolute crapton of more or less loose intepretations of that story in east Asian popculture, even seemingly unrelated works can suddenly pop one or a lot of it.
I was absolutely amazed that the original monk existed and he secretly came to Nalanda to study buddhism and then he was grandly welcomed by the Chinese emperor. Well, I hope the monkey King story was taken up by Chinese scholars to spice things up 🤣, I mean who wouldn't love magic and wonders.
Journey to the West is considered one of the 4 classic Chinese novels and is probably most popular of them for centuries already.
https://www.masculinedevelopment.com/joseph-campbell-heros-journey-examples-modern-men-part-1/
As long as the monomyth remains “A” story structure, and not “THE” story structure applicable to all stories and life itself, then it’s not problematic. But the fact is, this is the way that it’s being used. And so caution and analysis must be applied in applications of this story structure.
Very few (if any) anime that I've watched actually follow this pattern. Maybe it is more prevalent in the Western culture.
Writers are people, people are risk-adverse, so it makes sense that they generally prefer to fit the mold taught to them than to take risks and be creative.
Most shounen anime follow this to some degree. It is a derivative but it’s also formulaic.
Risk (socialogical risk) is an idea that is enforced by systemic reactionary ideals. These reactionary ideals are the ones we seek to smash.
Well I don't watch shonen so it's hard for me to judge. But how do you know shounen shows intentionally follow The Hero's Journey pattern or just happen to share some aspects? The one message that shounen likes to send is "work hard and be rewarded" (Japan is influenced by Confucian culture which values meritocracy). And due to the long running nature of anime shows, there must be multiple arcs, multiple challenges for the MC to overcome, and the MC will get stronger as a result of their hard work. This creates a "journey", but not necessarily The Hero's Journey™.
I have almost exclusively read shounen manga in the past. Chances are, if it was shounen and released between 2008 and 2015, I’ve read it.
It’s formulaic to the point where other satire anime will call out tropes associated with the genre, like Gintama.
Shounen manga starts with a great man that is at first under-estimated, but then is shown to have an exceptional talent or gains an exceptional power. A call to adventure is provided, usually when this talent or power is established. The hero will then meet a roadblock where they cannot pass, and they must train to gain more power. Usually multiple times. And the end is hastily and shittily concluded when the author is given very short notice to end the manga.