I hate these dumbass Hindu nationalists. Their weird love for "Israel," their insistence that Europeans and Americans actually care about where they fall in the caste system, their belief that westerners consider them somehow "white" -- everything about them is just delusional. Only Zionists and Ukrainian nazis inhabit a weirder headspace.
hindu nationalists are extremely delusional , they think India is no. 1. Partly because they think India developed a grand philosophy called Advaita Vedanta which is seeing God (Brahman ) in every living being on Earth. Now , it is correct we developed this philosophy but it had a catch , lower caste people and shudras were thought as inferior because of sins carried from previous birth. It was embedded in Bhagavad gita , upanishads that is originally "Hindu Dharma" but when biritsh colonized india , hindus came up with a new interpretation which is everybody is equal and caste system is a product of colonialism . Hindus have become arrogant and our history has been distorted to a large amount.
https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/chandogya-upanishad-english/d/doc239196.html
तद्य इह रमणीयचरणा अभ्याशो ह यत्ते रमणीयां योनिमापद्येरन्ब्राह्मणयोनिं वा क्षत्रिययोनिं वा वैश्ययोनिं वाथ य इह कपूयचरणा अभ्याशो ह यत्ते कपूयां योनिमापद्येरञ्श्वयोनिं वा सूकरयोनिं वा चण्डालयोनिं वा ॥ ५.१०.७ ॥
tadya iha ramaṇīyacaraṇā abhyāśo ha yatte ramaṇīyāṃ yonimāpadyeranbrāhmaṇayoniṃ vā kṣatriyayoniṃ vā vaiśyayoniṃ vātha ya iha kapūyacaraṇā abhyāśo ha yatte kapūyāṃ yonimāpadyerañśvayoniṃ vā sūkarayoniṃ vā caṇḍālayoniṃ vā || 5.10.7 ||
7. Among them, those who did good work in this world [in their past life] attain a good birth accordingly. They are born as a brāhmin, a kṣatriya, or a vaiśya. But those who did bad work in this world [in their past life] attain a bad birth accordingly, being born as a dog, a pig, or as a casteless person.
Obviously it was not all caste we had some good things too like every religion but NOT ABSOLUTELY GOOD
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasadiya_Sukta
Nasadiya Sukta (Hymn of non-Eternity, origin of universe):
There was neither non-existence nor existence then;
Neither the realm of space, nor the sky which is beyond;
What stirred? Where? In whose protection?
There was neither death nor immortality then;
No distinguishing sign of night nor of day;
That One breathed, windless, by its own impulse;
Other than that there was nothing beyond.
Darkness there was at first, by darkness hidden;
Without distinctive marks, this all was water;
That which, becoming, by the void was covered;
That One by force of heat came into being;
Who really knows? Who will here proclaim it?
Whence was it produced? Whence is this creation?
Gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe.
Who then knows whence it has arisen?
Whether God's will created it, or whether He was mute;
Perhaps it formed itself, or perhaps it did not;
The Supreme Brahman of the world, all pervasive and all knowing
He indeed knows, if not, no one knows
Very interesting (I'm fascinated by world religions/philosophies). The part about rebirth reminds me of Plato, who of course came much later. He has Socrates say in various dialogues that we inhabit a corrupted zone of the earth; those who lead good lives can after death be reborn in the higher, more beautiful regions of earth, while those who practice virtue and devote their lives to wisdom will after death leave their physical bodies and the physical world and go to live with God and the "forms." But those who are vicious in life will be reborn as animals or plants; and if their sins are particularly vile, they will not even be allowed to live on earth, but will be punished in a region of fire at the center of the earth.
I remember coming across the second passage, or something like it, in a biography of Beethoven. He was apparently deeply moved by certain Hindu writings and copied out entire sections in his notebooks.
Yeah Vedic people or sadhus questioned this thing why we have inequality and plight but I think the earlier Aryans when colonized northern India they put aboriginal people into lower caste due to the fear of race mixing and of losing the priestly status . We might never know the whole truth but in Upanishads (what I had read) it has mixed messages , At one time it is speaking about forcing wives into sex and in other one connection between Brahman and atman , even the founder of Advaita had contradictory teachings . On one had he established the vedic principle of castes but he himself said when you reach the true Brahman . It loses distinction , perhaps he was confused .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adi_Shankara
I am Consciousness, I am Bliss, I am Shiva, I am Shiva.[note 15]
Without hate, without infatuation, without craving, without greed;
Neither arrogance, nor conceit, never jealous I am;
Neither dharma, nor wealth, neither lust, nor moksha am I;
I am Consciousness, I am Bliss, I am Shiva, I am Shiva.
Without sins, without merits, without elation, without sorrow;
Neither mantra, nor rituals, neither pilgrimage, nor Vedas;
Neither the experiencer, nor experienced, nor the experience am I,
I am Consciousness, I am Bliss, I am Shiva, I am Shiva.
Without fear, without death, without discrimination, without caste;
Neither father, nor mother, never born I am;
Neither kith, nor kin, neither teacher, nor student am I;
I am Consciousness, I am Bliss, I am Shiva, I am Shiva.
Without form, without figure, without resemblance am I;
Vitality of all senses, in everything I am;
Neither attached, nor released am I;
I am Consciousness, I am Bliss, I am Shiva, I am Shiva.
Again, very interesting, and extremely powerful poetry. Shiva is the personification of death, correct? And moksha means "illusion," as in desire for transitory things? So the divine, by being beyond all opposites, is utterly simple and utterly beyond human comprehension. This is actually really beautiful and profound, if I'm understanding it right.
the earlier Aryans when colonized northern India they put aboriginal people into lower caste due to the fear of race mixing and of losing the priestly status
I've heard that some Hindutva types get around this by denying the Aryan invasions ever happened.
I’ve heard that some Hindutva types get around this by denying the Aryan invasions ever happened. Yes , they propagate aryans originated from India lol. I also think its a gross misunderstanding that Aryans "invaded" like they quashed every people , it might be plausible but how can these different languages of North India survive the onslaught of Sanskrit if the onslaught was massive. I think aryans rituals and norms got mixed up with local cultures and by these fusions a new society emerged which is vedic . There is a lot of confusion in that regard because southern people think (like here in the chat) Brahmins and upper caste don't belong to India or a certain region. This is largely abhorrent and shouldn't be practiced . India is largely mixed because of being a melting pot of different groups and people , Greeks , Kushans , Huns , Afghans , Turks , Babur all came and brought their culture and ethos . Indo aryans people brought their Vedas and theology. If we discard everything regarding Vedas ,Upanishads and the great epics then what should remain of India ? (the great dance , Indian classical music comes from Sama Veda )
Another thing yes , caste system existed from middle to late vedic age and it exists till now. The caste system is inbuilt into Hinduism because of ignorance and feudal mode of production in ancient society . Modern hindu groups are denying these allegations and its horrendous to justify it.
Shiva is a complicated god , he is destroyer of maya (avidya) or ignorance . Shivaism predates vedic religion and Siva mythologies and ethos were put into hindu puranas in late 600 CE. Shiva is actually not death but a man who won over maya (illusion of reality ) and he forever remains into this "bliss" state . He is poor , lives with ghosts , snakes , drinks poison . It is just to convey simple ethos and "brahman" is not with worldly pleasures and work. Brahman is gender less , formless , casteless and infinite. In Hinduism anything can be personal god (isharva) (some restrictions are obviously there ) . Shiva followers see Shiva as the absolute brahman , he has neither shape or gender (that what it is written by Sankara , he was a shivaite ) .
Moksha means liberation from cycle of birth and dying , here Sankara is saying there is some higher plain which goes beyond traditional concept of previous rituals and understanding .
I could envision a world where Indians with passing complexion become white. It's happening with West Asians after all.
India would be incredibly useful to the empire geopolitically, and if the global economy keeps bifurcating (or Chinese wages get too high) they may also have to replace China as the source of cheap labor for the West. That won't really work out well considering they're also in the firing line of the climate catastrophe, but who knows, maybe climate engineering works out and India doesn't become largely uninhabitable.
they may also have to replace China as the source of cheap labor for the West.
Besides the climate catastrophe -- which I'm with you in hoping humanity finds a way to mitigate -- there's also the problem of building India into a modern advanced industrial economy that can replace China. China's industrialization is rightly seen by the rest of the world as a kind of miracle, made possible (though western countries hate to admit it) by the fact of its being a Marxist-Leninist state. Specifically, land reform, political unity, the government's ability to mobilize the masses, and a theoretical framework which understands the role of capitalism in the context of Chinese and world history have been the cornerstones of China's economic success. The west likes to boast about how capitalist investment "raised" China to what it is today, but the fact is that no other government could have done with that investment what China did. Certainly Modi's government does not have the power, ability, or necessary base among the people to achieve what Mao, Deng, and Xi have done.
I hate these dumbass Hindu nationalists. Their weird love for "Israel," their insistence that Europeans and Americans actually care about where they fall in the caste system, their belief that westerners consider them somehow "white" -- everything about them is just delusional. Only Zionists and Ukrainian nazis inhabit a weirder headspace.
hindu nationalists are extremely delusional , they think India is no. 1. Partly because they think India developed a grand philosophy called Advaita Vedanta which is seeing God (Brahman ) in every living being on Earth. Now , it is correct we developed this philosophy but it had a catch , lower caste people and shudras were thought as inferior because of sins carried from previous birth. It was embedded in Bhagavad gita , upanishads that is originally "Hindu Dharma" but when biritsh colonized india , hindus came up with a new interpretation which is everybody is equal and caste system is a product of colonialism . Hindus have become arrogant and our history has been distorted to a large amount.
https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/chandogya-upanishad-english/d/doc239196.html तद्य इह रमणीयचरणा अभ्याशो ह यत्ते रमणीयां योनिमापद्येरन्ब्राह्मणयोनिं वा क्षत्रिययोनिं वा वैश्ययोनिं वाथ य इह कपूयचरणा अभ्याशो ह यत्ते कपूयां योनिमापद्येरञ्श्वयोनिं वा सूकरयोनिं वा चण्डालयोनिं वा ॥ ५.१०.७ ॥
Obviously it was not all caste we had some good things too like every religion but NOT ABSOLUTELY GOOD
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasadiya_Sukta
Nasadiya Sukta (Hymn of non-Eternity, origin of universe):
There was neither non-existence nor existence then; Neither the realm of space, nor the sky which is beyond; What stirred? Where? In whose protection?
There was neither death nor immortality then; No distinguishing sign of night nor of day; That One breathed, windless, by its own impulse; Other than that there was nothing beyond.
Darkness there was at first, by darkness hidden; Without distinctive marks, this all was water; That which, becoming, by the void was covered; That One by force of heat came into being;
Who really knows? Who will here proclaim it? Whence was it produced? Whence is this creation? Gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe. Who then knows whence it has arisen?
Whether God's will created it, or whether He was mute; Perhaps it formed itself, or perhaps it did not; The Supreme Brahman of the world, all pervasive and all knowing He indeed knows, if not, no one knows
Very interesting (I'm fascinated by world religions/philosophies). The part about rebirth reminds me of Plato, who of course came much later. He has Socrates say in various dialogues that we inhabit a corrupted zone of the earth; those who lead good lives can after death be reborn in the higher, more beautiful regions of earth, while those who practice virtue and devote their lives to wisdom will after death leave their physical bodies and the physical world and go to live with God and the "forms." But those who are vicious in life will be reborn as animals or plants; and if their sins are particularly vile, they will not even be allowed to live on earth, but will be punished in a region of fire at the center of the earth.
I remember coming across the second passage, or something like it, in a biography of Beethoven. He was apparently deeply moved by certain Hindu writings and copied out entire sections in his notebooks.
Yeah Vedic people or sadhus questioned this thing why we have inequality and plight but I think the earlier Aryans when colonized northern India they put aboriginal people into lower caste due to the fear of race mixing and of losing the priestly status . We might never know the whole truth but in Upanishads (what I had read) it has mixed messages , At one time it is speaking about forcing wives into sex and in other one connection between Brahman and atman , even the founder of Advaita had contradictory teachings . On one had he established the vedic principle of castes but he himself said when you reach the true Brahman . It loses distinction , perhaps he was confused .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adi_Shankara
—Adi Shankara, Nirvana Shatakam, Hymns 3–6
Again, very interesting, and extremely powerful poetry. Shiva is the personification of death, correct? And moksha means "illusion," as in desire for transitory things? So the divine, by being beyond all opposites, is utterly simple and utterly beyond human comprehension. This is actually really beautiful and profound, if I'm understanding it right.
I've heard that some Hindutva types get around this by denying the Aryan invasions ever happened.
I’ve heard that some Hindutva types get around this by denying the Aryan invasions ever happened. Yes , they propagate aryans originated from India lol. I also think its a gross misunderstanding that Aryans "invaded" like they quashed every people , it might be plausible but how can these different languages of North India survive the onslaught of Sanskrit if the onslaught was massive. I think aryans rituals and norms got mixed up with local cultures and by these fusions a new society emerged which is vedic . There is a lot of confusion in that regard because southern people think (like here in the chat) Brahmins and upper caste don't belong to India or a certain region. This is largely abhorrent and shouldn't be practiced . India is largely mixed because of being a melting pot of different groups and people , Greeks , Kushans , Huns , Afghans , Turks , Babur all came and brought their culture and ethos . Indo aryans people brought their Vedas and theology. If we discard everything regarding Vedas ,Upanishads and the great epics then what should remain of India ? (the great dance , Indian classical music comes from Sama Veda )
Another thing yes , caste system existed from middle to late vedic age and it exists till now. The caste system is inbuilt into Hinduism because of ignorance and feudal mode of production in ancient society . Modern hindu groups are denying these allegations and its horrendous to justify it.
Shiva is a complicated god , he is destroyer of maya (avidya) or ignorance . Shivaism predates vedic religion and Siva mythologies and ethos were put into hindu puranas in late 600 CE. Shiva is actually not death but a man who won over maya (illusion of reality ) and he forever remains into this "bliss" state . He is poor , lives with ghosts , snakes , drinks poison . It is just to convey simple ethos and "brahman" is not with worldly pleasures and work. Brahman is gender less , formless , casteless and infinite. In Hinduism anything can be personal god (isharva) (some restrictions are obviously there ) . Shiva followers see Shiva as the absolute brahman , he has neither shape or gender (that what it is written by Sankara , he was a shivaite ) .
Moksha means liberation from cycle of birth and dying , here Sankara is saying there is some higher plain which goes beyond traditional concept of previous rituals and understanding .
I could envision a world where Indians with passing complexion become white. It's happening with West Asians after all.
India would be incredibly useful to the empire geopolitically, and if the global economy keeps bifurcating (or Chinese wages get too high) they may also have to replace China as the source of cheap labor for the West. That won't really work out well considering they're also in the firing line of the climate catastrophe, but who knows, maybe climate engineering works out and India doesn't become largely uninhabitable.
Besides the climate catastrophe -- which I'm with you in hoping humanity finds a way to mitigate -- there's also the problem of building India into a modern advanced industrial economy that can replace China. China's industrialization is rightly seen by the rest of the world as a kind of miracle, made possible (though western countries hate to admit it) by the fact of its being a Marxist-Leninist state. Specifically, land reform, political unity, the government's ability to mobilize the masses, and a theoretical framework which understands the role of capitalism in the context of Chinese and world history have been the cornerstones of China's economic success. The west likes to boast about how capitalist investment "raised" China to what it is today, but the fact is that no other government could have done with that investment what China did. Certainly Modi's government does not have the power, ability, or necessary base among the people to achieve what Mao, Deng, and Xi have done.