Podcast description: Materialism is dead. There are simply too many questions left unanswered after years of studying the brain. Now, people are scrambling for a new way to understand the mind-body relationship. Cartesian dualism has become a whipping boy in philosophy, but it has advantages over the alternatives. Dr. Joshua Farris discusses Cartesianism and philosophy with Dr. Michael Egnor.

  • BodyBySisyphus [he/him]
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    3 years ago

    That’s one hell of a spandrel we got there then.

    Sure would be, but this is just an extension of the "tornado in a junkyard" trope that creationists use all the time. The argument in the article isn't that "consciousness is improbable" or "consciousness may have an origin other than evolution," it's "consciousness cannot have evolved"; both spandrels and selectively neutral mutations are examples of ways that evolution can act without direct selection on a given trait. The argument starts on a flawed understanding of evolutionary biology.

    What are the odds of this strange “spandrel” appearing to just so correspond so well to our body, why does getting hurt feel bad as opposed to good?

    To paraphrase Douglas Adams, why does a puddle fit perfectly in the depression in which it resides? The fact that consciousness corresponds to our physical experience of reality is, as far as I can tell, an argument in favor of an evolutionary origin of consciousness, not one against. Pain is unpleasant presumably because things that hurt tend to reduce fitness and any organisms that evolved a positive response to pain are probably selected out of the gene pool. Perhaps - we could argue - that consciousness is a spandrel that developed out of selection for organisms that can remember, contextualize, and avoid repetition of fitness-reducing experiences or seek out fitness-increasing experiences. The point here is not that we can definitively state an evolutionary origin for consciousness, merely that the nature of consciousness does not preclude the possibility of an evolutionary explanation.

    considering you can imagine countless of ways it could have developed differently, including no consciousness happening at all yet our bodies doing what they do normally.

    Endosymbiosis didn't have to happen either, or photosynthesis, or the Krebs cycle, or any of the other myriad prior developments it took to produce people. Improbable does not mean impossible.

    Why is this such a ridiculous claim but it isn’t ridiculous to claim matter has always been there?

    This is just a rehash of the "well evolution doesn't explain explain the origins of life" red herring. It's not incumbent on evolutionary theory to explain the existence of matter, and evidence suggests that - whatever its origin or lack thereof - the existence of matter predates the existence of life and that matter is capable of existing independently of life. What evidence do we have that consciousness exists independently of the physical matter of the brain? What does it even mean to say that consciousness predates conscious beings? That the brain somehow developed into a sophisticated antenna for tuning into something that we have no physical evidence of and doesn't fit into our existing physical models? That the universe itself is conscious and is teleologically oriented to producing conscious beings? That we're just God dreaming? I don't see how the claim leads to anything that resembles a testable hypothesis or is in any way distinguishable from a god of the gaps argument.

    • space_comrade [he/him]
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      3 years ago

      Pain is unpleasant presumably because things that hurt tend to reduce fitness

      But by saying that you're implying consciousness has causal efficacy in of itself, meaning it cannot be a spandrel, yet reductionist physicalism claims it doesn't. You're contradicting yourself.

      • BodyBySisyphus [he/him]
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        3 years ago

        I don’t think materialists actually believe this. Qualia can be associated with neuronal activity and can lead to observable changes in behavior. Emotion, for example.

        • space_comrade [he/him]
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          3 years ago

          That's circular reasoning though.

          "Qualia is the way it is because of this and that specific evolutionary beneficial neuronal activity and the neuronal activity is like that because the qualia feels bad or good in evolutionarily beneficial ways"

          That's the thing with hardline physicalism, you're always gonna end up chasing your tail, it's an epistemological dead end when it comes to consciousness.

          • BodyBySisyphus [he/him]
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            3 years ago

            The point here is not that we can definitively state an evolutionary origin for consciousness, merely that the nature of consciousness does not preclude the possibility of an evolutionary explanation.

            • space_comrade [he/him]
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              3 years ago

              Not sure what you're saying here. Do you really think I'm a creationist or something? Did you even read the article I linked with your full attention?

              Nobody is saying the theory of evolution is wrong, just that there was something else other than matter that was a participant in natural selection.

              • BodyBySisyphus [he/him]
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                3 years ago

                I'm saying these are creationist claims wrapped up in a veneer of philosophy and being promulgated by a creationist in the podcast that you linked.

                Did you even read the article I linked with your full attention?

                Dang, dawg, I don't even have evidence that you read past the first couple sentences in my reply above. Yes, I read the article. It's not very well written and makes a lot of baffling claims, some of which I tried to address. Let's look at what we might describe as Kastrup's thesis:

                However, our phenomenal consciousness is eminently qualitative, not quantitative. There is something it feels like to see the colour red, which is not captured by merely noting the frequency of red light. If we were to tell Helen Keller that red is an oscillation of approximately 4.3*1014 cycles per second, she would still not know what it feels like to see red. Analogously, what it feels like to listen to a Vivaldi sonata cannot be conveyed to a person born deaf, even if we show to the person the sonata’s complete power spectrum. Experiences are felt qualities—which philosophers and neuroscientists call ‘qualia’—not fully describable by abstract quantities.

                But, per Patricia Churchland:

                . . .the philosopher may go on to conclude that no science can ever really explain qualia because it cannot demonstrate what it is like to see blue if you have never seen blue; consciousness is forever beyond the reach of scientific understanding.
                What is the merit in this objection? It is lacking merit, for if you look closely, you will find that it rests on a misunderstanding. The argument presumes that if a conscious phenomenon, say smelling mint, were genuinely explained by a scientific theory, then a person who understood that theory should be caused to have that experience; e.g., should be caused to smell mint. Surely, however, the expectation is unwarranted. Why should anyone expect that understanding the theory must result in the production of the phenomenon the theory addresses? Consider an analogy. If a student really understands the nature of pregnancy by learning all there is to know about the causal nature of pregnancy, no one would expect the student to become pregnant thereby. If a student learns and really understands Newton’s laws, we should not expect the student, like Newton’s fabled apple, to thereby fall down. To smell mint, a certain range of neuronal activities have to obtain, particularly, let us assume, in olfactory cortex. Understanding that the olfactory cortex must be activated in manner will not itself activate the olfactory cortex in manner. We are asking too much of a neuroscientific theory if we ask it not only to explain and predict, but also to cause its target phenomenon, namely the smell of mint, simply by virtue of understanding the theory.


                something else other than matter that was a participant in natural selection.

                Ah, so the game is to redefine "physicalism" as to exclude everything that isn't matter? Again, I don't think anyone believes this. Information is not material - it can be encoded on and retrieved from physical substrates. Yet I don't think anyone is out there arguing that information in and of itself does not or cannot exist.

                • space_comrade [he/him]
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                  3 years ago

                  I didn't reply to every bit of your comment because most of it is just missing the point in ever more convoluted ways, and that includes most of this one. The Churchland quote in particular bares no relevance at all for what I'm trying to convey here so I'm not gonna be replying to any of that.

                  My argument (and the article's) is more specific than your vague gesturing:

                  Physicalism denies qualia (whatever that may be) in of itself any causal efficacy in the material world, whether by (somehow) equating it on an ontological level with configurations of matter or claiming each fundamental particle is a tiny bit conscious (that's usually called panpsychism).

                  If the specific qualities of qualia in of themselves (whatever they may be) cannot effect any change in the material world and if the theory of natural selection is true then it is quite wonderous that they correspond so well with what our body is currently doing.

                  You specifically mentioned pain as being evolutionarily beneficial (which I agree, it clearly is), and by doing so you inadvertently gave it causal efficacy, so that statement cannot possibly make sense in a purely physicalist account of consciousness unless you assume this wonderous coincidence that it just happens to be so.

                  When you think about it that sounds more like creationism than what I'm proposing.

                  • BodyBySisyphus [he/him]
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                    3 years ago

                    I didn’t reply to every bit of your comment because most of it is just missing the point in ever more convoluted ways, and that includes most of this one. The Churchland quote in particular bares no relevance at all for what I’m trying to convey here so I’m not gonna be replying to any of that.

                    The Churchland quote was literally a direct response to the central nugget of the Karstrup piece. I'm not sure what else I was supposed to take away from that. Maybe you should do what you're demanding from me and read the piece with your full attention.

                    Physicalism denies qualia (whatever that may be) in of itself any causal efficacy in the material world, whether by (somehow) equating it on an ontological level with configurations of matter or claiming each fundamental particle is a tiny bit conscious (that’s usually called panpsychism).

                    This is a strawman. Physicalism leads to the conclusion that qualia are an emergent property of interactions of matter. It doesn't require self-similarity at every level of organization. Heck, Karstrup is the one making the panpsychist argument in his conclusion: "[consciousness] can only have been there from the beginning as an intrinsic, irreducible fact of nature."

                    If the specific qualities of qualia in of themselves (whatever they may be) cannot effect any change in the material world and if the theory of natural selection is true then it is quite wonderous that they correspond so well with what our body is currently doing.

                    I don't know how many times I'm going to have to copy-paste this but: Qualia can be associated with neuronal activity and can lead to observable changes in behavior. Literally what the Churchland piece says, and she's arguing against your position. From further down:

                    A second and related complaint raised by certain philosophers is that even if neuroscience were to discover with what brain states being aware of a burning pain on one’s left ear is identical, we would still not understand why just those brain states are identical with precisely that sensation, as opposed, say, to feeling a desire to void. Neuroscience, it will be averred, will never be able to explain why conscious states Y = brain states X, rather than say, brain state Z. For those who are keen on qualia as metaphysical simples forever beyond the scope of science, the next step may be to infer that we cannot ever hope to understand that identity in neurobiological terms (Chalmers, 1996). Awareness, the claim goes, will always be ineffable and metaphysically basic. This means neuroscience cannot ever really explain consciousness. This complaint too rests on a misunderstanding. What is an example where a science — any subfield of science — explains why X = Y? Not how we know or why we believe that X = Y, but why X is identical to Y, rather than to Z. Using the examples already at hand, the corresponding questions would be these: why is temperature mean molecular kinetic energy, rather than, say, caloric fluid or something else entirely? Why is visible light actually electromagnetic radiation rather than, say, something else entirely, say, ‘‘intrinsic photonicness’’? By and large science does not offer explanations for fundamental identities. Rather, the discovery is that two descriptions refer to one and the same thing — or that two different measuring instruments are in fact measuring one and the same thing. Why is that thing, the thing it is? It just is. Science discovers fundamental identities, but the identities it discovers just are the way things are. There is no fundamental set of laws from which to derive that temperature is mean molecular kinetic energy or light is electromagnetic radiation.

                    Qualia are associated with physical states of the brain. Whether they're an emergent property of something more fundamental is of no consequence to evolution.

                    You specifically mentioned pain as being evolutionarily beneficial, and by doing so you inadvertently gave it causal efficacy, so that statement cannot possibly make sense in a purely physicalist account of consciousness unless you assume this wonderous coincidence that it just happens to be so.

                    Keep flailing, I think there's some straw that you missed there.

                    • space_comrade [he/him]
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                      3 years ago
                       Keep flailing, I think there’s some straw that you missed there.
                      

                      It's not a strawman, you've yet to explain how your entire framework doesn't rely on this miraculous coincidence that qualia corresponds so well to what our bodies are actually doing.

                      Churchland is right, physicalism doesn't explain why X = Y instead X = Z but it kinda should otherwise you end up with this absurd coincidence that just so happened against all odds.

                      • BodyBySisyphus [he/him]
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                        3 years ago

                        By and large science does not offer explanations for fundamental identities. Rather, the discovery is that two descriptions refer to one and the same thing — or that two different measuring instruments are in fact measuring one and the same thing. Why is that thing, the thing it is? It just is.

                        • space_comrade [he/him]
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                          3 years ago

                          You're avoiding the argument again.

                          Yes, what you just quoted is true about physicalism, it doesn't answer the why but in this particular case it should be doing that, because again, otherwise you end up with an absurdity of assuming something extremely unlikely. That's why I'm saying physicalism is an inadequate framework for explaining consciousness.

                          • BodyBySisyphus [he/him]
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                            3 years ago

                            it doesn’t answer the why but in this particular case it should be doing that, because again, otherwise you end up with an absurdity of assuming something extremely unlikely.

                            Okay, maybe I'm just lost on what you're asserting here. Why what does what? Why the brain is capable of producing an internal state that's connected to what's happening in the body? Because that's like, what it's for, man.

                            • space_comrade [he/him]
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                              3 years ago

                              Alright let's do a though experiment.

                              Let's take your eyesight. Imagine that instead of your normal eyesight you have almost the same thing but a single "qualia pixel" in the upper right corner of your eyesight is colored bright pink for whatever unknown reason. Why is that image not your real eyesight instead of your actual one?

                              Now imagine a few more pixels changing randomly, then imagine all the possible permutations of all colors for each pixel. Why aren't any of those your real eyesight? It seems there is no reason why they wouldn't be any of those other configurations because your body would be acting in the exact same way as it did before since it's entirely controlled by what unconscious matter is doing.

                              Do you see the absurdity now? It seems highly unlikely that our qualia should be just as they are. So shouldn't we be trying to find out why X = Y instead of Z in this case?

                              • BodyBySisyphus [he/him]
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                                3 years ago

                                Okay, I've spent a long time thinking about this and I'm concluding that we're doomed to talk past each other forever because we're starting from different priors. But here's my best effort:

                                To suppose the existence of a "qualia pixel" without some underlying physical explanation is to presuppose the existence of some form of Cartesian dualism because you're assuming that qualia have an existence independent of the brain and can be manifested by something other than the physical interaction of matter and energy. To not grant that makes answering your question easier - I can give my brain spurious inputs by staring at a lamp too long and getting an afterimage. In this case, I'd argue what I'm "seeing": the room, the afterimage superimposed on it, as my "real vision" because that's the signal my retina is sending my brain. Damage any parts of those systems - the retina, the optic nerve, the visual centers, etc., and the qualia disappear. The conclusion is that qualia have no independent existence outside of the architecture of the brain.

                                Now let's tackle the argument that qualia aren't necessary for cognition and therefore aren't subject to evolution. This is true insofar as we consider them independent of the brain. The lobster is capable of receiving, internalizing, and then reacting to stimuli but it probably doesn't experience qualia as such, and from that we can conclude that cognition - at least at some levels - is capable of existing without qualia. However, to extend that and say that all cognition is possible without it or that all cognition is possible without producing qualia as a byproduct is overextending the argument. It kind of reminds me of a reverse riff on Behe's irreducible complexity argument. Behe argues that if you take some functional structure, say a bacterial flagellum, and remove any one part, it stops functioning. Thus, Behe concludes, the flagellum must have been designed in situ by some intelligent force. Hopefully the flaws in this argument are obvious: the flagellum could have arisen from parts that developed for other purposes and by happy coincidence ended up working for propulsion (another example here is feathers. The first feathered animals couldn't fly and we can conclude that feathers didn't evolve "for" flight; they ended up suiting the purpose later). Yes, we can argue that that is one hella big coincidence, but the thing about dice is if you toss them enough times they'll all come up sixes. Monkeys and typewriters. Etc.

                                The argument Kastrup makes is the inverse of this; let's call it the argument from reduceable complexity. He argues that because we can imagine a philosophical zombie, consciousness is unnecessary and therefore cannot have been produced by evolution. But evolution produces weird, "unnecessary" crap all the time. Take peacocks, for example. Males have those large showy tails that make it harder to move around and easier to get spotted by predators. So why did it evolve? Enter the "handicap hypothesis": a form of sexual selection where a feature that reduces survival is an honest signal of fitness because only the most vigorous males can manage to cope with it. Testosterone in humans might be an example; higher levels of testosterone suppress the immune system. The brain itself might be another given the huge energy demand that it imposes. At any rate, we can envision a species of bird that doesn't rely on a survival-reducing feature for sexual selection. Should we conclude from this premise that the peacock's tail cannot have evolved? I don't think so - evolution just seeks a local maximum from whatever was there before, and that can produce some pretty counterintuitive outcomes.

                                So to deal with Kastrup's central premise (i.e., consciousness/qualia could not have evolved), he would have to demonstrate the following:

                                • Qualia play no role in cognition, learning, memory, or communication, all of which are behaviors that can happen in the absence of conscious experience. I think that no one's been able to answer this either way because we don't have sufficient understanding of how the brain works. The argument that a materialist worldview must conclude that they don't exist is one I've been chewing on a lot, and I think the error here is one of definition. The pain qualium, for example, is something that can be produced by a certain brain state. Prevent that brain state and you have no physical perception of pain. Thus, a materialist might conclude that what we call pain is a shorthand that refers to those brain states as they present themselves to our conscious awareness. This is entirely consistent with a materialist worldview, which says that all phenomena must arise out of the interaction of matter and energy, not that all phenomena be tangible, quantifiable, and measurable.
                                • If qualia play no actual role and are therefore not subject to selection, then they must not be a byproduct of lower-level processes that are subject to selection. Going back to pain, or your vision example, it's possible for us to prevent the pain qualium from being manifested by messing with someone's neurons; it's not possible to manifest the pain qualium in the absence of messing with someone's neurons. All our available evidence points to embodied cognition: that the body and mind are not separable and that our lived experience can be traced to events in the physical substrate of the brain. The existence of simpler physical systems in this case is not sufficient evidence, because we've established that complexity can emerge as a consequence of natural selection and processes/phenomena like exaptation and spandrels can produce side effects that still are subject to natural laws. That qualia also correspond to the "correct" physical experience and are therefore too coincidental to be an accident also isn't persuasive because we can conclude that, if qualia arise from some lower-order functioning of the brain, those lower-order functions must bear some correspondence to reality to be useful. The qualia we experience "make sense" to us because it's literally the only perspective we have.

                                Now, suppose he's correct and qualia play no role in behavior etc. and are not a byproduct of processes that are subject to selection, then how do we explain their existence? I'm still not a huge fan of Kastrup's last line that consciousness is "can only have been there from the beginning as an intrinsic, irreducible fact of nature." Seriously, how does this enrich our understanding and get us closer to understanding the nature of consciousness? Does it indicate that consciousness is somehow a law like gravity and is simply 'baked in' to the boundary conditions of the universe? How is that different from a materialist/determinist point of view wrapped up in a Deepak Chopra-ism? Does it posit the existence of a "consciousness field" that ordinary matter taps into once it's reached a certain level of complexity? Does it propose the existence of some intangible Mind that is capable of manipulating matter in the brain to produce behavior in a way that's completely consistent with our current understanding of chemistry and physics? Does it propose some realm of the hyperreal where causality works differently and all ordinary matter is just a lower-order reflection of hyperreal phenomena? How are we supposed to investigate any of these possibilities?

                                Karsten's argument is superficially more sophisticated than "flagellum therefore the Abrahamaic god" but it follows the same format: "Science cannot explain thing X, therefore it will not be able to explain thing X, therefore unfalsifiable claim Y." His conclusion doesn't follow from the premise because he doesn't have - and cannot provide - any positive evidence to support it.

                                • space_comrade [he/him]
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                                  3 years ago

                                  Okay, I’ve spent a long time thinking about this and I’m concluding that we’re doomed to talk past each other forever because we’re starting from different priors.

                                  Probably but I'll give it one last shot.

                                  You're right we're starting from different priors, I'm saying reductive physicalist priors don't really make that much sense and should be reconsidered. You're also right that reductive physicalism is more or less internally consistent and your conclusions that you made within this framework are valid, and who know maybe against all odds it turns out to be true but I find that extremely unlikely. What I'm saying is the whole framework is almost certainly doomed to be a dead end when it comes to finding out the truth about consciousness.

                                  You said you're fine with believing consciousness is a coincidence but I don't think you completely understand what kind of a coincidence we're really talking about here. It's not 1 in a million or 1 in a billion, it's 1 in damn near infinity. For every configuration of neurons in the brain you can imagine them resulting in nearly infinite variations of qualia, including no qualia at all (philosophical zombie) as I hope I've demonstrated with the qualia pixel thought experiment. If you assume the null hypothesis (which you probably should in a physicalist framework) there is no reason at all to expect one configuration over the other, so IMO it should be pretty baffling to the researcher that we just so ended with our particular set of qualia that just so seems to fit so well with what's going on with the body.

                                  I don't think handwaving this remarkable coincidence away as just a byproduct of the universe being huge is a good counter argument either. Does this mean there are other planets/galaxies/universes where consciousness evolved in a more unfortunate way and there are billions of conscious beings screaming internally in horrible pain from all the seemingly random input they're getting while their bodies do their thing on their own without the beings willing it? Or are we to assume a yet grander coincidence where consciousness always just so coincidentally evolves as a spandrel "the right way" everywhere in the universe? That almost feels like an "intelligent design" type argument.

                                  However you look at this coincidence the more you think about it the more absurdities you have to be okay with.

                                  And yes I understand the universe doesn't all that often work in accordance with our first intuitions about it but if you're so adamant about keeping physicalism as the only One True framework you've made it unfalsifiable because you're always gonna be able to handwave all discrepancies as just strange coincidences we shouldn't really think about that hard. Saying "it is how it is" when your scientific framework doesn't have a coherent answer isn't the slam dunk argument you think it is. At that point it's not at all different from religious belief.

                                  Just because physicalism as a tool got us pretty far in other sciences doesn't mean it's gonna get us to the finish line in every single scientific question we have. I don't see why I should consider physicalism to be the be all end all of ontologies when it clearly leads to some quite strange conclusions.

                                  Why can't we keep it when doing physics and chemistry and choosing a more appropriate framework for other scientific disciplines? Actual empirical evidence isn't at all clear about an entirely physicalist account of consciousness being true, we have damn near no clue what really goes on in the brain except on a very high level so I don't see a reason to be so adamant about using it here. It's definitely something to consider but I don't see why alternative theories that assume a different ontology should be automatically discredited.

                                  Does it indicate that consciousness is somehow a law like gravity and is simply ‘baked in’ to the boundary conditions of the universe? Does it posit the existence of a “consciousness field” that ordinary matter taps into once it’s reached a certain level of complexity? Does it propose the existence of some intangible Mind that is capable of manipulating matter in the brain to produce behavior in a way that’s completely consistent with our current understanding of chemistry and physics? Does it propose some realm of the hyperreal where causality works differently and all ordinary matter is just a lower-order reflection of hyperreal phenomena?

                                  Maybe, maybe not. It's something to consider, and I'm not sure why we should be completely refraining from considering it just because your intuition tells you it's ridiculous. I'm not claiming I have particularly good or satisfying answers to the question of consciousness but neither does physicalism no matter how hard it pretends it does.

                                  How are we supposed to investigate any of these possibilities?

                                  With the scientific method, same as we always do. Nothing in science necessitates an entirely physicalist ontology, we are very much free to pick another one if it fits better. We already have social sciences that don't deal with just matter and only matter like for example psychology. Why should neuroscience be a hardnosed physicalist science?

                                  Take for example this hypothesis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestrated_objective_reduction

                                  What's exactly stopping you from testing it scientifically given you have good enough measuring equipment?

                                  • BodyBySisyphus [he/him]
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                                    3 years ago

                                    There's a psychological experiment where the researchers had participants watch a video of two teams playing basketball, one with white shirts and one with black shirts. Half of participants were asked to count passes only made by players in white shirts. The other half were just told to watch the video. Midway through the video a guy in a gorilla suit walks behind the players, waves to the camera, and then walks off. After watching the video, participants were asked whether they had seen anything unusual. Participants in the first group said no; participants in the second mentioned the gorilla.

                                    Now the question: Did participants in the first group see the gorilla or not? On the one hand, they were presented with the exact same video as the second group. Gorilla photons entered their eyes and were presumably detected by their retinas, and the corresponding signals were sent up the optic nerve. On the other hand, the higher-order processing necessary for the brain to identify that particular stimulus as a gorilla and file it into memory to be retrieved later were not activated because they were otherwise engaged with counting passes and the workload that machinery can take on is finite. The first group may have seen the gorilla, but they didn't experience the gorilla on a qualitative level.

                                    A materialist interpretation would include that, while they are themselves intangible, qualia can only arise if presented to the consciousness by lower order machinations of the brain that are tightly linked to physical phenomena, and those machinations are very much subject to natural selection. Presumably whatever mechanisms that cause us to experience the gorilla are also involved in things important to survival, like assessing whether the gorilla presents a threat and deciding to fire up the fight-or-flight response. If the gorilla were deadly, it's possible the ball-watching group would have experienced a delayed reaction and been more likely to end up gorilla chow. While we can assume that a lobster doesn't act in the same way - its threat determining and fight-or-flight machinery activate in the absence of qualitatively experiencing the gorilla, in humans, as far as we can tell, those processes are sine qua non for the qualitative experience to occur. Thus, I don't think the "pink pixel" experiment is particularly illuminating, because it presumes that because qualia may not play a role in natural selection, all qualitative experiences should be equally likely. Even our limited understanding of the phenomenon of consciousness shows that that isn't true. My argument isn't that our particular experience of consciousness just dropped out of the sky the way it was, I said it worked out the way it did predicated on lower-order physical phenomena. The "pink pixel" thought experiment seems like it purports to ask what the odds are of producing a completely ordered deck of cards by shuffling; but, in reality, it suggests we should be asking why shuffling a deck of cards doesn't produce non-existent combinations like the ace of queens or a 6 of spade-clubs.

                                    The problems with assuming that evolution could not have produced consciousness because, if that were the case, we could just as easily have been metaphysical screaming pain ghosts trapped in bodies otherwise programmed to go about their lives and argue with each other on the internet is that (a) it's not a parsimonious outcome (the "screaming pain ghost" hypothesis doesn't coexist harmoniously with our accumulated understanding of consciousness), (b) it leads to epistemological nihilism. There's no way we can't say we aren't screaming pain ghosts right now because we'd have no way of expressing that fact. The idea that qualia can be empirically determined based on personal testimony, and arise from physical stimuli (with the requisite exceptions), is a prior in even the so-called "soft sciences" like psychology. Kastrup (and presumably by extension you) concludes that these are problems inherent in evolution, but they aren't; they're problems associated with assuming qualia aren't subject to any physical restrictions, which isn't something that any scientist that deals with the brain endorses, as far as I can tell. Your presentation of physicalism/materialsm is defined so narrowly that I don't think anyone actually subscribes to it.

                                    My problem with Kastrup's article, which I haven't yet been able to get you to engage with directly, is that Kastrup doesn't demonstrate an alternative method of inquiry. His whole article is just dedicated to tearing down the current methods - it doesn't propose anything to fill the hole. We just grandly conclude that consciousness is an ineffable, irreducible, and inaccessible component of reality without any meaningful implications. If the nature of reality is such that our only avenue of accumulating knowledge about something is by examining its physical footprint and that there are whole swathes that remain fundamentally inaccessible and unknowable, that kinda sucks from a philosophical perspective but doesn't really provide any alternatives to what we're already doing and the epistemologies we're already using. But Karstrup asserts that his way will produce a better understanding. What's wrong with demanding him to pony up some evidence this is the case? It's also not intuitively ridiculous, it's epistemologically ridiculous. If something is, by its nature, intangible, incorporeal, incapable of interacting with physical reality and any methods of inquiry we might use, real or imagined, why would we bother going looking for it even if it's there? It might as well not exist. We can come up with equally impossible models all day with no way of choosing from among them. I say Plato is right and there is some conceptual realm of forms that only our minds can access. Now what?

                                    Kastrup argues that consciousness cannot have evolved. Cannot involves a different level of certainty and a higher burden of evidence than "didn't." He's not arguing that consciousness could have arisen by evolution but he has evidence that there's an alternative origin, he's arguing that it's impossible for it to have arisen by evolution at all. Any semi-plausible explanation for consciousness that still adheres to what we know about evolution should be sufficient to dispense with the "cannot" claim, and I feel like I keep providing those. As for the "did not" claim, Kastrup doesn't provide any positive evidence or even propose an alternative mechanism or means by which we can search for an alternative mechanism. Unless he's willing to provide one of those things, I don't see why he's worth listening to.

                                    Also, quantum physics is definitely not my bag, but I don't see how OOR departs from existing models of what we know about the universe and how it operates. It appears to be more targeted at addressing the problem of determinism, which isn't something that seems particularly relevant here.

                                    • space_comrade [he/him]
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                                      3 years ago

                                      Honestly I think you're yet again sidestepping the core of my (and Kastrup's) argument and instead choose to meander around with explaining how physicalism works. I understand how it works and what conclusions it makes, I'm trying to point out other also valid conclusions within physicalism that should be raising an eyebrow and making you question if physicalism really makes that much sense.

                                      Also Kastrup doesn't just assume a priori that consciousness cannot have evolved, the point of that article is to show that it almost certainly didn't by using just the physicalist framework. It's a conclusion, not an assumption. He maybe should have been a bit more specific and said "our particular experience of consciousness co-evolved with our bodies" rather than the mainstream line "our bodies evolved consciousness in of themselves", he himself doesn't at all believe that the exact consciousness as we experience it today was around forever like ghosts or souls or whatever.

                                      Kastrup (and presumably by extension you) concludes that these are problems inherent in evolution, but they aren’t; they’re problems associated with assuming qualia aren’t subject to any physical restrictions, which isn’t something that any scientist that deals with the brain endorses, as far as I can tell.

                                      I've explained multiple times that, while yes it is conceivable that under physicalism consciousness evolves exactly like it did in you or me it is extremely unlikely if you don't give the subjective qualities of consciousness in of themselves any causal efficacy (which physicalism doesn't, it considers them either equivalent to or a product of configurations of matter). You keep outright ignoring this quite specific argument and focus on more general philosophical points. You are yet to address that rather extreme unlikelihood other than handwaving it away as "it just is" which is IMO completely unscientific and is close to religious belief itself.

                                      Kastrup also doesn't deny that the content of our qualia is heavily correlated with the material world, he's just claiming that it's not wholly caused by the material world on an ontological level.

                                      My problem with Kastrup’s article, which I haven’t yet been able to get you to engage with directly, is that Kastrup doesn’t demonstrate an alternative method of inquiry.

                                      I'm sorry he wasn't able to present to you an entire alternative scientific framework in a 15 minute article, I'll write him a stern email to do better next time. He's written multiple books, essays and did a bunch of lectures, here's a series of lectures about what exactly he's proposing and he goes way more in depth why he's proposing what he's proposing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDbCTxm6_Ps&list=PL64CzGA1kTzi085dogdD_BJkxeFaTZRoq

                                      Also, quantum physics is definitely not my bag, but I don’t see how OOR departs from existing models of what we know about the universe and how it operates.

                                      It does because it touches on the problem of what's the valid interpretation of quantum mechanics, which is definitely not a solved problem in mainstream science and can most definitely involve other ontologies other than physicalism depending on what interpretation you choose.