"This is a massive win for the Ukrainian spirit, because Putin actually wanted to capture Kiev before he dies of cancer and MS, but didn't get it. Obviously we we need to record this in the history books as a glorious win for
capitalismUkraine. What is a donbass?"somehow the russians were able to capture and hold onto a bunch of ukraine using only shovels and refrigerator parts
While shelling themselves. And losing less soldiers than Ukraine!
I can't wait for the Winter War-tier copium from liberals that will come after this. "Ukraine won despite losing its territory and having to stay neutral as Russia demanded because Ukraine remains independent and not completely annexed into the new Putino-Tsarist Soviet Union 2.0. Also now everyone knows that the Russian army sux because they took 2 years to win a war against a smaller country (also the US army still rocks in comparison despite spending 10 times longer in Afghanistan and losing)".
I expect that's precisely the narrative we'll get as long as there's anything left of Ukraine in the end. The secondary narrative is going to be that Ukraine would've totally won if not for those darn republicans blocking additional 60b spending.
Apt analogy, and the whole dynamic with Ukraine has a lot of parallels with Vietnam actually.
Ukraine really might have had a much better chance if it could have borrowed an extra $60bn to pay for the same 84 shells, all the stores marked "illegal weapons" 'left over' from before the Geneva convention, and the 3 tanks left in the warehouse. Nobody wants to be at war paying pre-war prices. What will the neighbours think? Don't answer. We already know—it's highly unfashionable.
Right, like the elephant in the room is that the west lacks industrial capacity to produce weapons and ammunition at the rate they're consumed. Dumping more money into this doesn't solve that problem. Also, how is another 60b going to accomplish what hundreds of billions they pumped into Ukraine over the past two years couldn't accomplish.
And to think that Ukraine could have given up Luhansk and Donetsk early on, avoided the destruction and demographic collapse. Now anything of value will be sold off in hopes that some of that money will go towards rebuilding it.
“It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal.”
― Henry Kissinger
The tragedy is that he lived a comfortable life without ever being prosecuted for his crimes.
Yes, that is definitely true. I would have loved to see him lose everything but instead he had an insanely comfortable life with nothing further to need.
If nothing else, I feel he lived just long enough to know that all his work would be undone in the end.
Not even given up. The original plan vented was more autonomy, respect russian language and persecute who commited crimes post euromaidan. Crimea status though they won't get back.
I meant after Minsk II agreement fell through and right when the war started.
I suspect the 'peace deal' will eventually look remarkably like a 'complete unconditional surrender'..
Ukraine and Western media will still claim victory because "Russia did not conquer all of Ukraine and genocide all of Ukrainians". There will be no reflection on failures or missed opportunities for an earlier peace.
At this point I can't see how it's going to be anything other than that. Russia's in too deep now to stop, and they've already won the economic war. So, there's really nothing the west can do at this point to reverse the situation.
Tbf I suspect their definition of "neutral" is different from yours or mine. Sweden was "neutral". Finland was "neutral". Switzerland, Austria, many of the offshores, I'm sure. What did it mean in practice? Diddly squat.
Considering how the ukrainian regime wiped their ass off with previous deals, I'm not sure Russia is willing to believe in a "neutral ukraine".
How many billions of dollars did it take for the West to accept Russia’s initial demands?
Look at this from US perspective though. They managed to successfully decouple Europe from Russian energy, and get them terrified of being invaded by Russia. A bunch of European industry moved to US boosting the economy, and the military industry can now sell weapons to Europe for decades on end. Seems like a pretty good result all in all.
It's a good short term result- medium and long-term, this will surely have the effect little different from dousing the Euros with gas and setting it on fire- though who knows how things will specifically play out.
Personally I suspect Europe will not be escaping the US' thrall anytime soon (as a Canadian, same here). But the relevance of western Europe is no doubt only going to plummet from here onwards, and the current set of US puppets will probably have to be replaced in the decade or so to come- likely several times, though I can't see the puppet masters actually changing for now. Whatever it is, Europe's future looks more bleak, more unstable, and far less capable of filling its roles as imperial auxiliaries, as it has prior- and if the Europeans ever do actually start taking charge of their own destiny and realizing how badly Uncle Sam has screwed them over, then anything is possible.
Completely agree, US is cannibalizing its most important geopolitical ally, and this is going to have a huge negative implication for US going forward.
"When you have a stomachache, stab your own stomach" - average euro lib
the stomach is a hotbed of foreign material immigrating into our precious bodily fluids. it's suspect. build the wall^H^H^H^Hgag. shoot to kill.
You joke, but the liberal world order did convince everyone in the west to use antibacterial spray/wipes and antibiotics to such an extent that it amounted to a war against that hotbed of foreign material. Everyone's gut is ruined and good luck with infections. But don't worry, the chemical manufacturers got their line to go up.
