Come on now. I'm sure that anyone who can keep the overview over all the brackets in a line of Lisp code, has the mental capacity to engage in a civil discussion, offer arguments to support their view and cite credible sources. So let's try again.
My argument is as follows:
As long as there is no adequate long term storage facility for nuclear waste, we should not produce more nuclear waste
I've answered this question a number of times in this thread in several different ways. It's pretty clear that there's a communication gap here. I'm not able to express my point any more clearly than I already have.
I'm really curious what it is you're trying to achieve here. If you've stated your arguments, and provided your sources then be confident in the quality of the argument you've made and move on. You're not going to get me to agree with the point you're making or change my point of view. It's just not going to happen. Other people reading this thread can make up their own mind whose argument they find more persuasive.
However, going over and over in circles and regurgitating the same points achieves absolutely nothing. There will be no breakthrough in this discussion. As someone who has mental capacity to write code, I also have mental capacity to detect when a conversation reaches a halting state. It's a skill I'd encourage your to try and develop to avoid wasting your life on pointless discussions.
Nope, I've addressed your arguments repeatedly and early on as anybody reading this thread will be able to see. The rest of this thread has consisted of your perseverating and claiming to be personally attacked. Again, I wonder what you're trying to achieve here.
You have in no way responded to my point that it's irresponsible to produce more nuclear waste while we do not have adequate long term storage facilities. You have not produced credible sources or arguments in favour of your opinion.
I want to achieve a civil discussion as stated before.
The fact that you keep repeating that I haven't responded to your point is precisely why productive discussion is no longer possible. If you want to achieve a civil discussion then you should go back and read my responses, and address them meaningfully.
I don't think that's true. You have on no occasion addressed my argument, that we should not produce more nuclear waste as long as we do not have a long term storage facility. You just said that such a facility can be built, and I agree that it's technically possible, but not politically feasible at that point in time in Germany.
So given the fact that there is no long term storage facility, why do you think that it's still viable to produce more nuclear waste?
That's what you failed to respond to.
Also looking at this discussion you have not once presented data from credible sources to support your claim that this is no issue.
You don't think it's true, and I think it is true. Therefore we're at an impasse here. I've responded to your point repeatedly and in different ways. I told you that Germany could build the facilities and negotiate with other countries that already have such facilities in the meantime. Meanwhile, plenty of sources have been presented in this thread, and I've specifically presented a source discussing nuclear waste storage. Again, I do not see any value in continuing this discussion with you. I'm entirely comfortable with the points I've made here.
There is no imminent threat from nuclear waste in Germany, and Germany has been operating reactors for a while now. So, the claim that all of a sudden it's not possible to do because there's no facility that's up to your standards is just fear mongering. The reality is that Germany simply chooses not to build this facility. Also, maybe should read the links you post as it clearly contradicts your claim:
In addition, the directive also provides for the possibility of transporting spent fuel and radioactive waste to other EU member states or third countries on the basis of bilateral agreements.
Google translate: https://www-bund-net.translate.goog/themen/atomkraft/atommuell/zwischenlager/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp
Thank you for trying to use arguments and sources.
There seems to be another misunderstanding: The cited directive only allows for transportation of nuclear fuel to other EU member states or third party states for e.g. reprocessing. The responsibility for storing the nuclear waste lies with the producer:
The directive is based on the general principle that ultimate responsibility for the safe disposal of spent fuel and radioactive waste lies with the Member States in whose territory these materials were generated. Specifically, the national framework to be drawn up by the member states must provide that the main responsibility for the disposal of these materials is in principle assigned to the producers. Member States must therefore ensure that anyone who has been granted authorization to carry out an activity related to waste disposal cannot shirk their associated responsibilities
It's the same source:
https://www-base-bund-de.translate.goog/DE/base/bundesamt/aufbau/archiv/bfs-stellungnahmen/DE/2011/02-17-eu-richtlinie.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp)
What that says is that the responsibility of ensuring safe disposal lies with the states producing nuclear waste. It says nothing regarding where the waste is disposed as far as I can see. So, again, I don't see anything here there precludes Germany from making a deal say with France to dispose of nuclear waste there while facilities are being built in Germany.
Meanwhile, the risks of storing nuclear waste on the surface level are a result of unwillingness to build facilities to store nuclear waste underground. It is a self inflicted problem.
The export of radioactive waste is still authorised but under much stricter rules. A nation receiving highly radioactive waste must have a deep underground repository. Such deep geological repositories do not exist anywhere in the world, the commission said, adding that none is under construction outside the EU. It takes at least 40 years to build one.
Yet, many EU nations use nuclear power, and it accounts for 80% of France's energy needs. So clearly there is a way to store nuclear waste in EU. What makes Germany such a unicorn?
Of course there's a way to store the nuclear waste. It's stored on the surface where it is prone to environmental or other hazards. The majority of German populace don't think this is safe.
BTW France is facing new problems for a couple of years now and had to power down nuclear power plants because the rivers had not enough water to cool them. This will probably happen a lot in the foreseeable future, so e.g. France needs to import power during the summer months.
Again, what's so special about Germany. Do you believe Germans are just more enlightened than the rest of the world and can see dangers nobody else can? Nuclear power is being used safely all over the globe, and the waste is being dealt with. Numerous studies show that nuclear power is safer than most other sources of energy, some of these studies have been linked in this thread.
The problems France is facing aren't unsolvable. Also, there are plenty of different kinds of reactor designs nowadays. For example, China is now starting to build thorium molten salt reactors that don't require water cooling https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/3224183/china-gives-green-light-nuclear-reactor-burns-thorium-fuel-could-power-country-20000-years
No, I don't think that Germans are enlightened. But I do think that the protests during the 70s and 80s led to an open public discussion about the risks of nuclear energy production and an increased consciousness of the dangers of nuclear waste.
A rational position is to compare the dangers of nuclear power to other alternatives. The hard data that's available to us shows that nuclear power is one of the safest and most reliable options for producing electricity at scale.
I don't think that's true. Here's a source detailing the dangers of nuclear fission reactors:
https://www-bund-net.translate.goog/themen/atomkraft/gefahren/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp
Up until the challenger accident space travel using the shuttles was incredibly save as well, when looking only at the accidents that occurred. But I think noone would have declared space travel risk free. There's a different between accidents that actually happened and the risk involved.
It's the same for nuclear waste. The risk is high.
We've already had big accidents like Chernobyl and Fukushima, and nuclear power continues to be a safe even accounting for these disasters. And it's only getting safer with newer reactor designs. The claim that the risk is high is not evidence based. This is just a neuroticism that appears to be uniquely German.
I don't agree. Calling nuclear power production safe after there have been massive contamination of the biosphere is quite cynical.
It's estimated that tens of thousands people have developed cancer as a direct cause of the Chernobyl disaster:
https://blog.ucsusa.org/lisbeth-gronlund/how-many-cancers-did-chernobyl-really-cause-updated/
Far more people die due to pollution from fossil fuels we're currently using, and far less people would be dying if we were using nuclear instead. That's not even mentioning the whole climate crisis we're already in. Also https://www.wired.com/story/the-chernobyl-disaster-might-have-also-built-a-paradise/
Yes and to reiterate: Being against nuclear power does not make me a fossil power proponent. We have to get rid of both and need to concentrate to transition to 100% renewables.
There are no viable alternatives available despite what people who promote renewables claim. Renewables simply can't produce energy at the necessary scale. This is why China, which is leading the world in producing renewables by a huge margin, is also deploying nuclear at scale. People who claim that we can transition away from fossils to renewables in the timescale we have available are either uninformed or lying.
Recent studies show that a global transition to 100% renewable energy across all sectors – power, heat, transport and desalination well before 2050 is feasible.
The track record we have clearly shows otherwise. The only country that's actually meeting climate goals is China, and they are massively investing in nuclear.
Can you provide sources for this claim?
It will not be easy to achieve climate neutrality by 2045 and Germany is currently struggling to achieve this. But I think it's entirely feasible.
Here is a source to back up my claim:
https://www.bmuv.de/fileadmin/Daten_BMU/Pools/Broschueren/climate_action__figures_2019_brochure_en_bf.pdf
Sorry but I completely lost the overview🤣 it's been some time now and I don't know how many comments us two have posted.
Next time we'll discuss functional vs. imperative programming and it will get even worse, hrhr
no
IMHO not offering arguments or credible sources make you're opinion moot.
ok
Come on now. I'm sure that anyone who can keep the overview over all the brackets in a line of Lisp code, has the mental capacity to engage in a civil discussion, offer arguments to support their view and cite credible sources. So let's try again. My argument is as follows:
As long as there is no adequate long term storage facility for nuclear waste, we should not produce more nuclear waste
What's your antithesis?
I've answered this question a number of times in this thread in several different ways. It's pretty clear that there's a communication gap here. I'm not able to express my point any more clearly than I already have.
I'm really curious what it is you're trying to achieve here. If you've stated your arguments, and provided your sources then be confident in the quality of the argument you've made and move on. You're not going to get me to agree with the point you're making or change my point of view. It's just not going to happen. Other people reading this thread can make up their own mind whose argument they find more persuasive.
However, going over and over in circles and regurgitating the same points achieves absolutely nothing. There will be no breakthrough in this discussion. As someone who has mental capacity to write code, I also have mental capacity to detect when a conversation reaches a halting state. It's a skill I'd encourage your to try and develop to avoid wasting your life on pointless discussions.
This is just another ad hominem attack, undermining my personality, while ignoring my arguments and the sources I cited to support them.
Nope, I've addressed your arguments repeatedly and early on as anybody reading this thread will be able to see. The rest of this thread has consisted of your perseverating and claiming to be personally attacked. Again, I wonder what you're trying to achieve here.
You have in no way responded to my point that it's irresponsible to produce more nuclear waste while we do not have adequate long term storage facilities. You have not produced credible sources or arguments in favour of your opinion.
I want to achieve a civil discussion as stated before.
The fact that you keep repeating that I haven't responded to your point is precisely why productive discussion is no longer possible. If you want to achieve a civil discussion then you should go back and read my responses, and address them meaningfully.
I don't think that's true. You have on no occasion addressed my argument, that we should not produce more nuclear waste as long as we do not have a long term storage facility. You just said that such a facility can be built, and I agree that it's technically possible, but not politically feasible at that point in time in Germany. So given the fact that there is no long term storage facility, why do you think that it's still viable to produce more nuclear waste? That's what you failed to respond to. Also looking at this discussion you have not once presented data from credible sources to support your claim that this is no issue.
You don't think it's true, and I think it is true. Therefore we're at an impasse here. I've responded to your point repeatedly and in different ways. I told you that Germany could build the facilities and negotiate with other countries that already have such facilities in the meantime. Meanwhile, plenty of sources have been presented in this thread, and I've specifically presented a source discussing nuclear waste storage. Again, I do not see any value in continuing this discussion with you. I'm entirely comfortable with the points I've made here.
No you did not. Claiming that building such a facility is possible it's not the same as there actually existing such a facility in Germany.
Exporting nuclear waste to other countries is not possible because of 2011/70/EURATOM. So the waste has to be handled where it is produced.
Sources: https://www.base.bund.de/DE/base/bundesamt/aufbau/archiv/bfs-stellungnahmen/DE/2011/02-17-eu-richtlinie.html (Google translation: https://www-base-bund-de.translate.goog/DE/base/bundesamt/aufbau/archiv/bfs-stellungnahmen/DE/2011/02-17-eu-richtlinie.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp)
I once again responded to your claims with arguments and a credible source. This is IMHO how a civil discussion works.
There is no imminent threat from nuclear waste in Germany, and Germany has been operating reactors for a while now. So, the claim that all of a sudden it's not possible to do because there's no facility that's up to your standards is just fear mongering. The reality is that Germany simply chooses not to build this facility. Also, maybe should read the links you post as it clearly contradicts your claim:
Here is a source detailing the threats of storing nuclear waste on the surface level:
https://www.bund.net/themen/atomkraft/atommuell/zwischenlager/
Google translate: https://www-bund-net.translate.goog/themen/atomkraft/atommuell/zwischenlager/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp
Thank you for trying to use arguments and sources.
There seems to be another misunderstanding: The cited directive only allows for transportation of nuclear fuel to other EU member states or third party states for e.g. reprocessing. The responsibility for storing the nuclear waste lies with the producer:
The directive is based on the general principle that ultimate responsibility for the safe disposal of spent fuel and radioactive waste lies with the Member States in whose territory these materials were generated. Specifically, the national framework to be drawn up by the member states must provide that the main responsibility for the disposal of these materials is in principle assigned to the producers. Member States must therefore ensure that anyone who has been granted authorization to carry out an activity related to waste disposal cannot shirk their associated responsibilities
It's the same source: https://www-base-bund-de.translate.goog/DE/base/bundesamt/aufbau/archiv/bfs-stellungnahmen/DE/2011/02-17-eu-richtlinie.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp)
What that says is that the responsibility of ensuring safe disposal lies with the states producing nuclear waste. It says nothing regarding where the waste is disposed as far as I can see. So, again, I don't see anything here there precludes Germany from making a deal say with France to dispose of nuclear waste there while facilities are being built in Germany.
Meanwhile, the risks of storing nuclear waste on the surface level are a result of unwillingness to build facilities to store nuclear waste underground. It is a self inflicted problem.
The export of radioactive waste is still authorised but under much stricter rules. A nation receiving highly radioactive waste must have a deep underground repository. Such deep geological repositories do not exist anywhere in the world, the commission said, adding that none is under construction outside the EU. It takes at least 40 years to build one.
Yet, many EU nations use nuclear power, and it accounts for 80% of France's energy needs. So clearly there is a way to store nuclear waste in EU. What makes Germany such a unicorn?
Of course there's a way to store the nuclear waste. It's stored on the surface where it is prone to environmental or other hazards. The majority of German populace don't think this is safe.
BTW France is facing new problems for a couple of years now and had to power down nuclear power plants because the rivers had not enough water to cool them. This will probably happen a lot in the foreseeable future, so e.g. France needs to import power during the summer months.
Sources:
https://balkangreenenergynews.com/climate-change-water-scarcity-jeopardizing-french-nuclear-fleet/
https://www.energate-messenger.com/news/223699/nuclear-power-plant-problems-make-france-an-electricity-importer
Again, what's so special about Germany. Do you believe Germans are just more enlightened than the rest of the world and can see dangers nobody else can? Nuclear power is being used safely all over the globe, and the waste is being dealt with. Numerous studies show that nuclear power is safer than most other sources of energy, some of these studies have been linked in this thread.
The problems France is facing aren't unsolvable. Also, there are plenty of different kinds of reactor designs nowadays. For example, China is now starting to build thorium molten salt reactors that don't require water cooling https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/3224183/china-gives-green-light-nuclear-reactor-burns-thorium-fuel-could-power-country-20000-years
No, I don't think that Germans are enlightened. But I do think that the protests during the 70s and 80s led to an open public discussion about the risks of nuclear energy production and an increased consciousness of the dangers of nuclear waste.
Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-nuclear_movement_in_Germany
Again, are there some specific risks of nuclear energy that Germans are uniquely aware of?
I don't think so. But I do think that Germans are more conscious about the dangers of nuclear waste as detailed in the earlier post.
A rational position is to compare the dangers of nuclear power to other alternatives. The hard data that's available to us shows that nuclear power is one of the safest and most reliable options for producing electricity at scale.
I don't think that's true. Here's a source detailing the dangers of nuclear fission reactors: https://www-bund-net.translate.goog/themen/atomkraft/gefahren/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp
And here are actual hard numbers clearly showing that nuclear power is incredibly safe
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/death-rates-from-energy-production-per-twh
Up until the challenger accident space travel using the shuttles was incredibly save as well, when looking only at the accidents that occurred. But I think noone would have declared space travel risk free. There's a different between accidents that actually happened and the risk involved. It's the same for nuclear waste. The risk is high.
We've already had big accidents like Chernobyl and Fukushima, and nuclear power continues to be a safe even accounting for these disasters. And it's only getting safer with newer reactor designs. The claim that the risk is high is not evidence based. This is just a neuroticism that appears to be uniquely German.
I don't agree. Calling nuclear power production safe after there have been massive contamination of the biosphere is quite cynical. It's estimated that tens of thousands people have developed cancer as a direct cause of the Chernobyl disaster: https://blog.ucsusa.org/lisbeth-gronlund/how-many-cancers-did-chernobyl-really-cause-updated/
Far more people die due to pollution from fossil fuels we're currently using, and far less people would be dying if we were using nuclear instead. That's not even mentioning the whole climate crisis we're already in. Also https://www.wired.com/story/the-chernobyl-disaster-might-have-also-built-a-paradise/
Yes and to reiterate: Being against nuclear power does not make me a fossil power proponent. We have to get rid of both and need to concentrate to transition to 100% renewables.
There are no viable alternatives available despite what people who promote renewables claim. Renewables simply can't produce energy at the necessary scale. This is why China, which is leading the world in producing renewables by a huge margin, is also deploying nuclear at scale. People who claim that we can transition away from fossils to renewables in the timescale we have available are either uninformed or lying.
Recent studies show that a global transition to 100% renewable energy across all sectors – power, heat, transport and desalination well before 2050 is feasible.
Source:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/100%25_renewable_energy
The track record we have clearly shows otherwise. The only country that's actually meeting climate goals is China, and they are massively investing in nuclear.
Can you provide sources for this claim? It will not be easy to achieve climate neutrality by 2045 and Germany is currently struggling to achieve this. But I think it's entirely feasible. Here is a source to back up my claim: https://www.bmuv.de/fileadmin/Daten_BMU/Pools/Broschueren/climate_action__figures_2019_brochure_en_bf.pdf
I gave some sources in the other reply, perhaps we can stick with a single thread if we have to keep this going?
Sorry but I completely lost the overview🤣 it's been some time now and I don't know how many comments us two have posted. Next time we'll discuss functional vs. imperative programming and it will get even worse, hrhr