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thanks so much for this! (tho tbh i really didn't want to ever return to spinoza i know he's like the philosophers philosopher but it was torture sometimes)
on replacing gods - what's your feeling/thoughts on what that'd look like (esp. in a leftist sense)? do you agree with N about christianity/greek gods generally? And about other religious systems, I assume you'd say there's worthy qualities/values discernable in them all (or not?); which are the big concepts/ideas that you prefer in various faiths or mythologies?
also have you ever read (i dunno if you read this genre) Lord of Light by R.Zelazney? It's sci fi but he studied religions it's a fun book.
i'll read that stuff through & probably bother you with questions at some point :D
" What I’m more interested in is religion from the sociological standpoint."
yeah this is what I was asking mainly, and by other religious systems I meant just common knowledge about their espoused values.
but your answer is excellent thanks.
It's a really interesting topic these religious aspects in the US, it is a unique and in some ways historically unprecedented situation or maybe 'religious ecosystem'
Though it (religious evolution/development in the US) has i think enough similarities with polytheistic systems to assume some things about it's evolution - I think we can probably look to India, or the horn of Africa, or some other regions where we've had this mixing of religious thought in (relatively) newly formed states.
I guess what I mean is that you say worship of economy, I can say grain-god. You say worship of science, I can say wisdom-god. In this way of considering it, the god of christ has been forced back to it's pre-monotheist days, it's split into a couple of different expressions - evangelical mega churches are bacchus again for example.
The civil god even would be the lawgiver/justice god - which the empire usually associates with the state (in modern times the nation state).
all these 'fragmented' aspects of religious thought and practice we can see manifested in the US are present also in any place that is nominally strictly and rigidly monotheistic or doctrinal, they are just repressed or redirected, i guess you could say forced into grand narratives. And still throughout much of the world, grand religious narratives hold sway (though I appreciate that on a global scale this can be described as increasingly/already fragmented by globalism/modernity as much as anything else).
So:
" in my opinion gods cannot be replaced with facts and logic, they have to be replaced by better gods which will look nothing like the anthropomorphized God of Abrahamic religions, but what this might look like is anyone’s guess."
I totally agree, except with the last as above I think we can make some good guesses at least - for example there will be an agriculture deity, that might be similar or different to the economy deity that will also exist, depending on conditions. there will be ancestor worship in some form (hopefully not faces on mountains) - probably the ppl who fought in the revolution or similar. Whatever the sex/love deity ends up like it won't be binary in manifestation, we know.
I wonder tho about anthropomorphism - look at US competing pantheons as expressed by the 'literati' and propagandised by the state, I mean superheroes. Yeah they're for kids (sort of), no they're not representative of religion or religious thought in the US, but at the same time they are I think (the marvel films for example) a good look at what the US would like thier pantheon to look like.
I agree it won't look like Abrahamic anthromorphism, but I wouldn't discount some amount or manifestation of it - it's a key method of religious thought, to make ourselves or parts of ourselves gods so we can see what we look like in extreme, which is a useful thing of course.
Also as a minor thought - while gods/religion cannot be replaced with facts and logic, for sure there is a facts and logic god - atheistic groups/cults have always sprung up through history alongside theistic ones, and there are usually gods of language and mathematics in polytheistic places. I think these things have probably already merged in scientism, the hard atheism & the math god.
"Practice shows that if one sits down with an express purpose of “creating a religion” that quickly fails or turns into a scam."
Yeah. A while back, I looked into UFOlogy briefly. I guess you could call this a religion (regardless of the truth of UFOs/aliens), in the same sense of your other US religions, but when I was looking at it in some iterations it has this idea that the US deep state is hiding tech progress from the people, progress that would end capitalism, eradicate poverty etc.
So in this theology/cosmology (or at least one common expression of it), there are gods (aliens), the state are corrupt and evil (there's a devil), the promised utopia is one that lines up fairly well with socialist ideals. The prophets are whistleblowers (prometheus i guess). And the gods, the aliens are peaceful and also prevent global war in a distant, indirect way.
Anyway, it was interesting to me because at least one common expression of this particular 'religion' is completely untroubled by a shift to a socialist economy/state, in fact that is it's goal (though the method involves a mysterious technological artifact to solve material problems). It's also heavily co-opted/influenced by the CIA (who understand in some way i assume religion - it's not like they can't read) which is interesting.
Are there any fragments of US religious thought (the economy, wicca, luck worship in casinos, whatever) that you think can be compatable with a socialist future, or aren't contradictory with it? Obv not the q cult...
"Not sure what you are referring to re Greek gods"
sorry it was badly phrased, i mean the morality systems not actual gods - if I remember rightly he prefers a more empowering one to the xtian version, when he's talking about slaves/nobles.
to rephrase better: do you agree with his analysis of xtian morality, generally speaking, as being undesirable/less desirable? especially with comparison to a more 'honest with the real world/empowering' morality, which i got the impression he thought the greek religious virtues were (not accusing him of supporting/following ancient greek religion)?
thanks so much for this! (tho tbh i really didn't want to ever return to spinoza i know he's like the philosophers philosopher but it was torture sometimes)
on replacing gods - what's your feeling/thoughts on what that'd look like (esp. in a leftist sense)? do you agree with N about christianity/greek gods generally? And about other religious systems, I assume you'd say there's worthy qualities/values discernable in them all (or not?); which are the big concepts/ideas that you prefer in various faiths or mythologies?
also have you ever read (i dunno if you read this genre) Lord of Light by R.Zelazney? It's sci fi but he studied religions it's a fun book.
i'll read that stuff through & probably bother you with questions at some point :D
deleted by creator
" What I’m more interested in is religion from the sociological standpoint."
yeah this is what I was asking mainly, and by other religious systems I meant just common knowledge about their espoused values.
but your answer is excellent thanks.
It's a really interesting topic these religious aspects in the US, it is a unique and in some ways historically unprecedented situation or maybe 'religious ecosystem'
Though it (religious evolution/development in the US) has i think enough similarities with polytheistic systems to assume some things about it's evolution - I think we can probably look to India, or the horn of Africa, or some other regions where we've had this mixing of religious thought in (relatively) newly formed states.
I guess what I mean is that you say worship of economy, I can say grain-god. You say worship of science, I can say wisdom-god. In this way of considering it, the god of christ has been forced back to it's pre-monotheist days, it's split into a couple of different expressions - evangelical mega churches are bacchus again for example. The civil god even would be the lawgiver/justice god - which the empire usually associates with the state (in modern times the nation state).
all these 'fragmented' aspects of religious thought and practice we can see manifested in the US are present also in any place that is nominally strictly and rigidly monotheistic or doctrinal, they are just repressed or redirected, i guess you could say forced into grand narratives. And still throughout much of the world, grand religious narratives hold sway (though I appreciate that on a global scale this can be described as increasingly/already fragmented by globalism/modernity as much as anything else).
So:
" in my opinion gods cannot be replaced with facts and logic, they have to be replaced by better gods which will look nothing like the anthropomorphized God of Abrahamic religions, but what this might look like is anyone’s guess."
I totally agree, except with the last as above I think we can make some good guesses at least - for example there will be an agriculture deity, that might be similar or different to the economy deity that will also exist, depending on conditions. there will be ancestor worship in some form (hopefully not faces on mountains) - probably the ppl who fought in the revolution or similar. Whatever the sex/love deity ends up like it won't be binary in manifestation, we know.
I wonder tho about anthropomorphism - look at US competing pantheons as expressed by the 'literati' and propagandised by the state, I mean superheroes. Yeah they're for kids (sort of), no they're not representative of religion or religious thought in the US, but at the same time they are I think (the marvel films for example) a good look at what the US would like thier pantheon to look like.
I agree it won't look like Abrahamic anthromorphism, but I wouldn't discount some amount or manifestation of it - it's a key method of religious thought, to make ourselves or parts of ourselves gods so we can see what we look like in extreme, which is a useful thing of course.
Also as a minor thought - while gods/religion cannot be replaced with facts and logic, for sure there is a facts and logic god - atheistic groups/cults have always sprung up through history alongside theistic ones, and there are usually gods of language and mathematics in polytheistic places. I think these things have probably already merged in scientism, the hard atheism & the math god.
"Practice shows that if one sits down with an express purpose of “creating a religion” that quickly fails or turns into a scam."
Yeah. A while back, I looked into UFOlogy briefly. I guess you could call this a religion (regardless of the truth of UFOs/aliens), in the same sense of your other US religions, but when I was looking at it in some iterations it has this idea that the US deep state is hiding tech progress from the people, progress that would end capitalism, eradicate poverty etc.
So in this theology/cosmology (or at least one common expression of it), there are gods (aliens), the state are corrupt and evil (there's a devil), the promised utopia is one that lines up fairly well with socialist ideals. The prophets are whistleblowers (prometheus i guess). And the gods, the aliens are peaceful and also prevent global war in a distant, indirect way.
Anyway, it was interesting to me because at least one common expression of this particular 'religion' is completely untroubled by a shift to a socialist economy/state, in fact that is it's goal (though the method involves a mysterious technological artifact to solve material problems). It's also heavily co-opted/influenced by the CIA (who understand in some way i assume religion - it's not like they can't read) which is interesting.
Are there any fragments of US religious thought (the economy, wicca, luck worship in casinos, whatever) that you think can be compatable with a socialist future, or aren't contradictory with it? Obv not the q cult...
"Not sure what you are referring to re Greek gods"
sorry it was badly phrased, i mean the morality systems not actual gods - if I remember rightly he prefers a more empowering one to the xtian version, when he's talking about slaves/nobles.
to rephrase better: do you agree with his analysis of xtian morality, generally speaking, as being undesirable/less desirable? especially with comparison to a more 'honest with the real world/empowering' morality, which i got the impression he thought the greek religious virtues were (not accusing him of supporting/following ancient greek religion)?
deleted by creator