• CatholicSocialist@lemmy.ml
    ·
    1 year ago

    Uh, yes? I don't support the blatant invasion and warcrimes by Russia but I can recognize Ukraine has a fascist problem too.

    • TheLepidopterists [he/him]
      ·
      1 year ago

      Wait, do you support Donbas self rule or not? Are they not allowed to invite their ally (Russia) to support them militarily in a war of aggression by their neighbor, Ukraine?

        • TheLepidopterists [he/him]
          ·
          1 year ago

          How should Russia have defended their allies, the DPR and LPR without attacking their aggressor's supply lines?

          Can you think of any wars in which both participants didn't attack least try to attack military supply chains?

        • brain_in_a_box [he/him]
          ·
          1 year ago

          I did, but then I also read the rest of your comment, which muddied things a lot.

          You're getting pretty damn hostile and evasive about this.

          • CatholicSocialist@lemmy.ml
            ·
            1 year ago

            Muddied? There's this thing called "nuance." I support Donbas independence, I simply don't think it gives Russia the right to invade anywhere outside of Donbas, is that that complicated to understand?

            • TheLepidopterists [he/him]
              ·
              1 year ago

              So if you invade another country and as part of their defense of their country, their military enters your country, they're now the aggressors?

              Do you apply that principal to all conflicts, or only against enemies of the West?

                • TheLepidopterists [he/him]
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  They've been shelling and raiding the Donbas, which you consider to be independent, for about 9 years.

                  Surely you are aware of this, it's pretty essential background on a political topic that you are highly opinionated about.

                  • CatholicSocialist@lemmy.ml
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    So let me get this straight: if the US/Canada were hostile with each other, and the people of Alberta, Canada, were separatists that allied themselves with the US, but the Canadian government refused to recognize Alberta's sovereignty, you would support a full-scale, deadly American invasion of Canada?

                    • MattsAlt [comrade/them]
                      ·
                      1 year ago

                      What an awful analogy that misses any sort of context or nuance about the situation.

                      That's the problem with liberals like you, that you think things can be understood by imagining it as something superficially similar.

                      Do you understand what historical materialism is?

                    • TheLepidopterists [he/him]
                      ·
                      1 year ago

                      To be clear, to be a true analog the province needs to be an ethnic minority which is being targeted by the national government.

                      Say Alberta was the only majority English speaking province, and Ottawa started putting up statues of a Quebecois terrorist leader from 80 years ago who lead the massacre of 100k English speakers and allied with Hitler during WW2, then they announced that English would be banned from all government facilities including primary schools, and when Alberta tried to secede they sent Nazi paramilitary death squads to harass them and started bombing them daily.

                      At that point, if the US interceded and went past the Albertan border to attack other military targets in Canada, you would consider that a war of aggression by America against Canada and not them defending their ally, Alberta?

                      • CatholicSocialist@lemmy.ml
                        ·
                        edit-2
                        1 year ago

                        At that point, if the US interceded and went past the Albertan border to attack other military targets in Canada, you would consider that a war of aggression by America against Canada and not them defending their ally, Alberta?

                        If America's massacring civilians in Ottawa and Toronto? Yes, of course I would. Any sane person would. Stay in Alberta.

                        You people call yourselves anti-war? I think you're the real liberals here.

                        • TheLepidopterists [he/him]
                          ·
                          1 year ago

                          What number of civilians have to die before your defensive war is an unacceptable war of aggression now?

                          Did the Allied counter offensive against the Nazis come in below that number? How about the Union during the US civil war?

                    • brain_in_a_box [he/him]
                      ·
                      1 year ago

                      If I considered it justified for the US to enter the war on the side of the separatists, I would absolutely say that it is then justified for the US to invade Canada proper.

            • brain_in_a_box [he/him]
              ·
              1 year ago

              When 99.9% of people who unironically use the word tankie, and think that 'fascist' means 'anything I don't like', also fiercely oppose Donbas independence, and when the one I'm talking to is also refusing to just give a clear answer, I'm not about to say I'm in the wrong for asking some clarifying questions.

              Also, why doesn't it give Russia the right to invade? Was it wrong for the allies to invade Germany proper during WW2?

              • CatholicSocialist@lemmy.ml
                ·
                1 year ago

                when the one I’m talking to is also refusing to just give a clear answer

                I very clearly said I supported their independence, but okay.

                Also, why doesn’t it give Russia the right to invade?

                So let me get this straight, you support civilians being massacred and innocent lives being lost? You really think Ukraine is on the same level of Nazi fucking Germany? Honestly I wouldn't even much of a problem if they just invaded Donbas but they're invading the whole fucking country and causing so much death and destruction. How is that justified? How can you call yourself anti-war and anti-imperialism and justify a brutal invasion? Some true colors being shown...

                • TheLepidopterists [he/him]
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  I very clearly said I supported their independence, but okay.

                  But you are clearly being deceitful, just in this comment you basically admit that you don't actually support their independence.

                  Look:

                  Honestly I wouldn't even much of a problem if they just invaded Donbas

                  The DPR and LPR invited Russia. How could they have "just invaded Donbas."

                  Please explain

                  A) The Donbas isn't really independent and you consider it Ukrainian property. (Surely not, you insist that this isn't the case) B) You consider soldiers who are in a foreign country to be invaders regardless of the relationship of the two states? (Can't be this or the US is invading half the planet right this second, including Taiwan) C) ???

                  Please enlighten us.

                  This isn't even getting into the point that multiple people made that you've ignored for half an hour, that once you're in a war with someone who wants to conquer you, sending your soldiers into their territory isn't an act of aggression, otherwise the US and the Soviets aggressed against the Nazis, which only an actual Nazi would claim.

                  (To be clear, I don't think you're a Nazi, just an intellectually dishonest liberal).

                • panopticon [comrade/them]
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  1 year ago

                  you support civilians being massacred and innocent lives being lost?

                  no, this was why the people's republics of donetsk and luhansk invited military aid, and was the cause behind the Minsk agreements as well as Russia recognizing the Donbas republics

                • brain_in_a_box [he/him]
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  I very clearly said I supported their independence, but okay.

                  You then added a lot of seeming qualifiers.

                  So let me get this straight, you support civilians being massacred and innocent lives being lost?

                  Please show me where I said this.

                  You really think Ukraine is on the same level of Nazi fucking Germany?

                  Please show me where I said this.

                  How can you call yourself anti-war and anti-imperialism

                  Please show me where I said this.

                  Some true colors being shown...

                  The true colours of yourself, having to lie about me to make your point.