When I say honor, what I mean is the idea of every individual being called to answer to everyone else. You know, the kind of thing you see from the Klingons. "You are thirty and unmarried, you bring dishonor to us" or "shame on your family for eternity because you were arrested for terrorism" or "what a disgrace you are for not having the skillset of your parents". This goes deeper than that though, sometimes it's more subtle, for example you might run into old classmates and all they want to know is how your brother is doing, or people keep telling you that you should live up to your sister or they might put you in some kind of shadow.

People who defend honor will often say "it is the masses who have spoken, enough said" but do you consider this self-explanatory and why? Because I have many questions sometimes that get no answer that seem to undermine the very justification of honor, for example... what defines a member of an honor culture, is the internet seen as a valid method of manifesting an honor culture, does an honor culture that faces a schism and breaks off from another become a dishonorable honor culture or equally valid, who was the first person to believe in certain ideas from which the honor culture got its conclusions, how did said person justify their ideas, is it dishonorable to find loopholes in the rules of the honor culture, are you dishonored if you save the life of someone who is seppukuing, what if this person happens to be the emperor, etc.

  • Melobol@lemmy.ml
    ·
    3 months ago

    Honor means a lot of different things. And it has been used to commit so many different crimes against minorities.

    I think nowadays in the western culture it means individual honor. It means to be trustworthy and to stand by your word. By the classic saying: "A gentleman can settle the bill later".

    The way late stage capitalism goes, honor culture will be left behind. Where every individual is reduced to a number, the concept is disappearing. You pay first before pumping gas. And the only time your wow matters is in the court when you say you won't lie.

    • nomad@infosec.pub
      ·
      3 months ago

      Love the western definition meaning integrity. Loathe the definition meaning group pressure up to violence.

  • ganymede@lemmy.ml
    ·
    edit-2
    3 months ago

    imo honor is roughly a synonym for integrity.

    yet integrity means different things to different people.

    and people also mistake honor and pride.

  • Collatz_problem [comrade/them]
    ·
    3 months ago

    Graeber in Debt has made an interesting point that honor historically meant an ability to reduce freedom of other people.

  • keepcarrot [she/her]
    ·
    3 months ago

    I feel like you're talking about multiple things that are only loosely related, some of which could be called honour. It's varied enough that I wouldn't call it self-explanatory.

    Certainly, I could see someone defining honour as, at some point, the respect of military peers. This still exists with honourable or dishonourable discharge, but reaching back in time one could imagine an honourable knight treating his peasants poorly (and certainly less well than how he treats other knights), to say nothing of women specifically.

    Likewise, Japanese culture is said to be an "honour culture" but it could be said to be a particular form of Japanese Machismo that has evolved from the Japanese martial classes (an elite) to the modern proletarian salaryman.

    But in common modern usage, I see enough "honourable klingon" memes that use honour as a sort of earnestness and respect amongst everyone.

    Not saying any of interpretations are correct (or wholly wrong), just that there's enough of them that are plausible that saying any of them is self-explanatory is a bit of a reach.

    Erm, I'm a bit high