Hi, could you perhaps elaborate a bit on the racist history of the bell curve? I'm well aware of the racist history of IQ, but I don't even have an inkling of what that's referring to in the context of the bell curve. It's just the graph of a normal distribution, is this referring to some weird application of it to some racist shit?
PS: I know you've attached a video with info on it and me asking might be kinda dumb. However, I saw it's 2+hrs and I don't have the time to watch it right now but I'm still interested.
The Bell Curve mentioned isn't the graph distribution, but rather the book by the same name that uses misrepresented data from IQ tests to push the idea that there is a genetic factor that makes black people inherently less intelligent than anyone else.
also, the video you linked is very good and well worth the time investment. for anyone who can’t watch the video, RW has a good article along the same lines
IQ test predict performance with the same self-identified racial groups, so what explains that?
No source here so I can only assume where you got this data. The most commonly cited source for this is the one used in The Bell Curve which compared test scores of black children in America immediately post segregation and apartheid South Africa against white American children. So, like, obviously the segregated underclass in two deeply racist countries is gonna have a lower quality of education.
It's gonna take me a bit to figure out how to use the website for NLSY79 so bear with me on that.
The youngest of the cohort in 1979 was 14, since segregation was only officially ended in 1965, it once again seems more likely the legacy of segregation and America's continued racist culture had a larger impact on outcomes than IQ test scores to me.
But, I'm a biologist not a sociologist, so not really my field of expertise.
Edit: the National Longitudinal Study of Youth doesn't even test for IQ, this has been a waste of time.
sorry you had to deal with this lying racist shithead. let me know if hexbear deals with them in a satisfactory way — it’s always good to know how other instances deal with “polite” racist shitheads who try to slip their bullshit in under a thin veneer of misapplied science
Yes it does, it's one of the most widely cited studies for IQ research. My uni had the class do a research project based on this study, you might just be looking at the wrong page.
It doesn't, see attached screenshot of tests carried out on the cohort.
There are fields of biology that were largely discarded due to its racist foundations, (does eugenics ring any bells to you?).
IQ is a predictor of outcome only once you have discarded every other variable, I don't see why such a weak predictor is being so stringently defended by you.
Did I ever argue for the tossing out of psychometrics?
IQ in its current state has not been extracted from its racist origins. If the sole basis of modern genetics was fascists and their hangers-on trying to find a new way to root out removed your arguement may have a point, but it has moved on from the eugenicists of old. Whereas the basis of IQ testing is largely unchanged from its origins and the consequences of that remain largely unexamined by the people that argue in its favour.
The theories of Arthur Jensen, a (now deceased) proponent of eugenics via IQ testing have been used argue against the establishment of welfare programs and affirmative action.
Charles Murray, the surviving author of The Bell Curve is still rattling around pushing for segregated education in order to form a "cognitive elite".
The framework behind IQ has not changed since its racist beginnings, until those can be addressed any not racist benefits are merely a byproduct of an attempt to maintain a tool used legitimise racialised hierarchies.
Genetics on the other hand has discarded the racist theories that spawned it.
If so, how is someone being racially discriminated against by IQ tests continuing to be used?
See again, my example of the 2020 grading controversy, where students were marked below their expected grades based on an algorithm that used average demographic SAT scores. 36% of GCSE students were graded significantly lower than they should've been. You wanna guess the racial make-up of schools hit harshest by this?
what has genetics discarded that IQ tests haven't?
Well for starters eugenics has been rejected in the mainstream consensus of geneticists. Their crackpot theories are rejected and their racism is unsupported by their academic peers. James Watson publicly expressing his bigoted views on race and IQ resulted in a barrage of complaints by his peers in the field of genetics.
On the other hand in psychometrics:
Charles Murray, (to name but one prominent eugenicist psychometrician) continues to publish his works tying IQ to race on a number of journals, is broadcasted on a variety of publications, and his works (despite not holding up to much scientific scrutiny) continue to be cited in studies into IQ.
Richard Lynn and J Philippe Rushton, are two prominent professors of psychology who are very outspoken about IQ being connected primarily to race. They are in charge of the pioneer fund, a eugenics institute. Rushton has argued in favour of phrenology.
The American Psychological Association was still publishing pro-eugenics articles as recently as 2005.
That's the difference. Genetics has discarded its eugenicists, psychometrics has kept them.
what elements remains in psychometry that causes harm where IQ tests are still used?
The main changes on how IQ is measured have been to account for the Flynn effect. There has been no attempt to correct the fundamental flaw in how IQ tests work, ie their conception of intelligence revolves around the pet theories of some 1920's eugenicists.
For anyone who hasn't watched it this video is an excellent breakdown of the racist history of both The Bell Curve and of IQ tests.
Hi, could you perhaps elaborate a bit on the racist history of the bell curve? I'm well aware of the racist history of IQ, but I don't even have an inkling of what that's referring to in the context of the bell curve. It's just the graph of a normal distribution, is this referring to some weird application of it to some racist shit?
PS: I know you've attached a video with info on it and me asking might be kinda dumb. However, I saw it's 2+hrs and I don't have the time to watch it right now but I'm still interested.
I feel that my comment was a little ambiguous.
The Bell Curve mentioned isn't the graph distribution, but rather the book by the same name that uses misrepresented data from IQ tests to push the idea that there is a genetic factor that makes black people inherently less intelligent than anyone else.
Sorry for any misunderstandings.
also, the video you linked is very good and well worth the time investment. for anyone who can’t watch the video, RW has a good article along the same lines
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oh do fuck off
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Here's two studies that tested for heritability of IQ.
1 2
No source here so I can only assume where you got this data. The most commonly cited source for this is the one used in The Bell Curve which compared test scores of black children in America immediately post segregation and apartheid South Africa against white American children. So, like, obviously the segregated underclass in two deeply racist countries is gonna have a lower quality of education.
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It's gonna take me a bit to figure out how to use the website for NLSY79 so bear with me on that.
The youngest of the cohort in 1979 was 14, since segregation was only officially ended in 1965, it once again seems more likely the legacy of segregation and America's continued racist culture had a larger impact on outcomes than IQ test scores to me.
But, I'm a biologist not a sociologist, so not really my field of expertise.
Edit: the National Longitudinal Study of Youth doesn't even test for IQ, this has been a waste of time.
sorry you had to deal with this lying racist shithead. let me know if hexbear deals with them in a satisfactory way — it’s always good to know how other instances deal with “polite” racist shitheads who try to slip their bullshit in under a thin veneer of misapplied science
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It doesn't, see attached screenshot of tests carried out on the cohort.
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The use of ASVAB score as a stand-in for IQ is contentious amongst researchers.
1 2 3 4 5
What's more, higher scores on WAIS and ASVAB are even less correlated with eachother than lower scores.
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Still sifting through the data myself to have a look, but this study seems to suggest it doesn't (at least with educational outcomes).
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It does show that g is a poor predictor for educational outcomes.
And this study shows that g doesn't correlate well with wealth.
And this one suggests socioeconomic background has a similar impact on educational outcomes to cognitive ability.
So, what "life outcomes" is IQ supposed to be so much better at predicting that we can safely ignore its racist baggage?
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There are fields of biology that were largely discarded due to its racist foundations, (does eugenics ring any bells to you?).
IQ is a predictor of outcome only once you have discarded every other variable, I don't see why such a weak predictor is being so stringently defended by you.
Also when I talk about racist baggage, I don't mean that some racists use IQ as an excuse for racism. I mean IQ testing was popularised by eugenicists looking for excuses to do eugenics.
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Did I ever argue for the tossing out of psychometrics?
IQ in its current state has not been extracted from its racist origins. If the sole basis of modern genetics was fascists and their hangers-on trying to find a new way to root out removed your arguement may have a point, but it has moved on from the eugenicists of old. Whereas the basis of IQ testing is largely unchanged from its origins and the consequences of that remain largely unexamined by the people that argue in its favour.
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The theories of Arthur Jensen, a (now deceased) proponent of eugenics via IQ testing have been used argue against the establishment of welfare programs and affirmative action.
Charles Murray, the surviving author of The Bell Curve is still rattling around pushing for segregated education in order to form a "cognitive elite".
Former prime minister of the UK Boris Johnson is a proud proponent of IQ based eugenics.
As were the people that informed his policies.
During the COVID-19 lockdown, they took advantage of cancelled exams to redistribute grading so that people in poorer areas where given lower marks in an attempt to cut the working class from further education.
You can't claim this stuff is in the past when it's still being used by neoliberals to inform policy.
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The framework behind IQ has not changed since its racist beginnings, until those can be addressed any not racist benefits are merely a byproduct of an attempt to maintain a tool used legitimise racialised hierarchies.
Genetics on the other hand has discarded the racist theories that spawned it.
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See again, my example of the 2020 grading controversy, where students were marked below their expected grades based on an algorithm that used average demographic SAT scores. 36% of GCSE students were graded significantly lower than they should've been. You wanna guess the racial make-up of schools hit harshest by this?
Well for starters eugenics has been rejected in the mainstream consensus of geneticists. Their crackpot theories are rejected and their racism is unsupported by their academic peers. James Watson publicly expressing his bigoted views on race and IQ resulted in a barrage of complaints by his peers in the field of genetics.
On the other hand in psychometrics:
Charles Murray, (to name but one prominent eugenicist psychometrician) continues to publish his works tying IQ to race on a number of journals, is broadcasted on a variety of publications, and his works (despite not holding up to much scientific scrutiny) continue to be cited in studies into IQ.
Richard Lynn and J Philippe Rushton, are two prominent professors of psychology who are very outspoken about IQ being connected primarily to race. They are in charge of the pioneer fund, a eugenics institute. Rushton has argued in favour of phrenology.
The American Psychological Association was still publishing pro-eugenics articles as recently as 2005.
That's the difference. Genetics has discarded its eugenicists, psychometrics has kept them.
The main changes on how IQ is measured have been to account for the Flynn effect. There has been no attempt to correct the fundamental flaw in how IQ tests work, ie their conception of intelligence revolves around the pet theories of some 1920's eugenicists.