With these new rules, FIDE has managed to
- Imply the mental inferiority of women
- Validate the existence of transgender men
- Destroy the integrity of awards record-keeping
- Call transgender women men
Very nice, FIDE, incredible mental gymnastics performance! 👏 Add them to the ever lengthening sports federation shitlist.
So the argument about physical capabilities used to ban trans women from sports was bullshit and it was all actually transphobia?! Color me shocked
Well... no. There are maybe 50 women total who could play in the NFL, mostly as kickers. In basketball, women use a smaller ball because their hands are just smaller. Someone who's FTM is probably not going to be able to compete.
There are enduring advantages from living most of your life pumped with testosterone. But there's so few top athletes who transition MTF in their prime, it's not a big problem. Just look at Caitlyn Jenner. She could still beat most women (and men) at a track meet.
Just gonna paste an old comment I made about trans athletes. TL;DR: athletic advantages/disadvantages diminish after ~2 years of HRT. There's no good reason to exclude trans people from elite sports. Athletes already undergo testing to make sure their hormones levels are within pre-determined limits.
British Journal of Sports Medicine states 2 years after receiving gender affirming hormones, athletic advantages disappeared with an exception to running, in which trans- women had 9% faster lap times. Trans-men were on par with their biological male counterparts after just 1 year of hormone therapy.
Medscape has an interview with Joanna Harper, and advisor to the I0C on gender and sports about this very topic. In the interview she mentions a study out of Brazil that indicates a further decrease in strength in trans-women (MtF) athletes after 36 months, further diminishing any potential physiological advantage in these athletes.
There's also something to be said about who these arguments are targeting. There are very few elite trans athletes and they already have to conform to strict guidelines on blood hormone levels and other doping tactics, just like everyone else at that level. The arguments are largely against high schoolers (children) who just want to participate in something. No one is taking puberty blockers and gender affirming hormones just to take a trophy home in high school. It's a ridiculous argument through and through. A thinly veiled attempt to further marginalize and discriminate against a vulnerable population
The issue of transgender athletes was basically resolved several years ago when the IOC decided on two years of feminizing hormones before transgender women could compete in the female category. But due to the re-emergence of the anti-queer culture war, sports federations are re-litigating the issue and throwing science out the door.
I'm sure muscle diminishes rapidly after MTF transition, but humans are just very good at losing muscle. Height and hand size are not things that go away after transition. Basketball is obviously one of the sports where MTF people have a massive advantage, although I don't know of any studies on it. It depends massively on the sport.
Of course in professional leagues everyone is genetically unique. Saying "no this particular genetically unique person is unfair" is a bit weird.
When you start talking about height and hand size, I think you're getting lost in the sauce. Basketball already favors abnormally tall people anyway, but no one is trying to ban Yao Ming from the sport for being 229 cm (7'6").
Yeah. Pretty much all the transphobic arguments could apply to most top athletes.
"Yao Ming is stealing sports from natural, normal height men!"
"Michael Phelps has an unfair advantage because he has unnatural lungs and bone structure!"
"It's not fair to normal men that they have to compete against Mike Tyson. Would you want your son to have to fight against that?"
The reality is that the top athletes will always be physical outliers. That doesn't mean more average folks need to be excluded from sports nor that birth gender necessarily gives you an unfair advantage compared to the top athletes.
Beat me to the punch. This has been a settled issue for years, the only reason to hammer on about how trans people shouldn't be in sports is either prejudice or ignorance. And having a several comment exchange where sources are already cited kinda narrows that down
Have you seen Michael Phelp's hands. The man is an absolute genetic freak with multiple advantages, both in external build and internally (e.g. lactose buildup), there's no way anyone with average genetics can compete no matter how much they train.
And middle of the road athletes competing in the men's leagues don't become top athletes in the woman's league after transitioning, btw. They become middle of the road. Might there be some slight advantage? Dunno, not sure, might be, but it also doesn't matter because noone the fuck is willing to incur gender dysphoria to win a fucking title. Athletes are nuts but not that nuts.
athletic advantages/disadvantages diminish after ~2 years of HRT
This is what I keep thinking whenever I hear about this "debate." But I guess if the bigots admitted they know how hormones work, then they wouldn't have an outlet for their transphobia.
Oops, you gave it away! Turns out if you make this move you either admit:
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That you think people who are biologically male have an advantage in mental only competition
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That you want to punish transgender people for transitioning by taking away what they've earned and preventing them from participating in the future.
How completely and utterly shocking, that the trans people in sports "fairness" debate was just a badly put together costume for sexism and transphobia. I tell you, I'm more shocked about this than anything. Definitely.
That you think people who are biologically male have an advantage in mental only competition
Doesn't supporting gender/sex separated leagues existing at all imply exactly the same thing?
no, it's a tool used to combat the overwhelming misogyny that makes it extremely unappealing for women to participate in. It's only effective when these orgs actually use other policies to work alongside it, which of course they never do.
yes - but at least there you could argue that it's a historical relic.
I don't think anyone could reasonably argue that the attitude that men are smarter than women (or at least, better at chess) didn't exist previously, and that's why they leagues are setup this way. But it's one thing to not change existing policies rooted in sexism, and another entirely to create new policies rooted in sexism.
The former happens literally all the time, because large institutions are slow to change, and even though blatant sexism is no longer socially acceptable, it's still prevalent in peoples' heads. When the latter happens, it understandably causes more uproar, because it's an active move towards more sexist policies.
Don't get me wrong, we should absolutely get rid of gender based leagues IMO and switch to having leagues based on ability (whatever the critical ability might be for the competition in question) and call it a day - that would solve both the sexism issue and the trans issue, as there would no longer be any "unfair advantages". What genitals a person was born with - whether they kept them or not - shouldn't impact how you're allowed to compete especially in an activity like chess that has no reasonable basis for gender separation in the first place
IMO you've hit the nail on the head.
These conflicts and confusions are the consequences of gendered leagues, but because the issues come up in the context of transgender people, it makes it seem like an issue with transgender people.
Buuut then there is the issue of the representation of women in (most) popular professional sports is much lower, and would be worse without this delineation along gender lines.
So what we need is to make up our mind if we want either:
All sports to be as fair at all times as physically possible
Or
If we want to see all genders fairly represented in popular professional sports
If it is the first, we should ungender the leagues. If it is the second, we should stop worrying about it and let transgender people compete wherever they want.
"the transphobia is because we gave the women their own space, that was our mistake"
No, it was because of transphobia
That isn't what I'm saying, I agree the transphobia is just transphobia.
I'm trying to talk about why this issue confuses so many people, and why people that aren't well educated on gender often fall for the transphobes bullshit when it comes to the "fairness" in sport shit, as well as guess at a possible way to recontextualize this "debate" in a way that benefits trans people.
Skill and talent aren't cleanly split along gender lines just because that is a convenient way to split the leagues. If these transphobes are so concerned about "fairness" then we should have more leagues for all sports delineated by something besides gender, I recommend weight class. Or, if the point was for women to have a space, then it should be a space for all women, and trans women should be allowed to participate. That second option is the one I would pick.
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Wow, Fuck FIDE
Given the current FIDE president is: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkady_Dvorkovich
It's not much of a surprise.
He's a hard-core insider in Russian Politics. He was the Deputy Prim Minister under Dmitry Medvedev for years. He's been heavily involved in Moscow politics for years.
Well Russia's recent push to make the lives of trans people worse has been after he left politics so I don't really get the connection.
Russia has always tried to make the lives of trans people worse. It's not remotely new, it's just more prioritized now.
Whole dang game is about coming out as trans and violently abolishing the patriarchy and they ban trans women from top level play smh
But you don't understand! Clearly trans women having a different bone density gives them an unfair advantage because of, uh, something something integrity of sports.
You see, she hasn't been on estrogen long enough to be as emotional and illogical as cis women, giving her an advantage in such strategic and intellectual pursuits as Chess. This isn't one of the few board games that women can compete on a level playing field with men, like Shoots and Ladders or Candyland.
I like how this manages to be both transphobic and like insanely sexist. Way to go, FIDE! Can you guys work homophobia or racism in there for a hat trick?
Ah yes, men and women are physically built differently so trans women have an advantage because they can... grip the chess pieces better with their bigger hands, and crush the pieces/flip the table more easily due to their increased strength. Makes total sense.
What the hell? There is no possible (meaningful) reason for this...
Now wait a minute. I can see why there are issues with males transitioning to female participating in female sports because a man is clearly advantaged over a female but in mental activities what does it matter?
From what I've been able to gather, when gender is anonymous like in online chess men and women seem to compete pretty comparably, but in real life women appear to compete worse against men than other women. Maybe they feel intimidated, idk, but that's what the data seems to show.
Yeah I feel like it's mostly a cultural thing. In the past, women were discouraged (and at a certain point not allowed) from playing chess, so it's always been a male dominated hobby
In general, women tend to be reluctant to get into male dominated interests and occupations when there isn't a welcoming, large enough space for them (e.g. depending on gender roles and expectations, some countries have mostly male doctors, some have an equal amount of male/female doctors, and some have mostly female doctors). So there isn't exactly a large enough pool of women who care enough to really get into chess and make achievements in it. it's also just, kind of a boring hobby to get into imo
The president of FIDE was a former Deputy Prime Minister of Russia. NATO has a lot of power, but to say they control FIDE is ridiculous.
Statistics. The Woman's league in principle only exists because many many more men play chess so they dominate the top ranks by statistics alone.
