You must look at the 20s and 30s in the Soviet Union, especially after Lenin died. I personally only use "Marxist" and this is how I describe myself. Marxist-Leninist is not valid term in my opinion, because Lenin is the continuation of Marx. If I encounter someone who is d'accord with Stalin, Trotsky or maybe Mao, I call them stalinist, trotskyist or whatever. I do it, because they are important differences in what those people think.
Let's say I would think, that Bukharin/Stalin/Trotsky is the man I think has the right thoughts. For me, this would be the continuation of marxism and everything else would be revisionist, reactionary and non-marxist. Don't making difference would be the same as naming everything "tankie".
So I still say I am a Marxist, but if anyone would ask me what my opinion is regarding those figures, I would then say, that I am trotskyist/stalinist/bukharist. I hope it is understandable what I am trying to say.
I know that many here call themself Marxist-Leninist and seriously use this term, but I don't, I don't think it is a valid term. After Stalin there were enough figures who used it anyway. After "sino-soviet split" they both claimed to be the continuation of Marxism-Leninism.
So I always like to ask more questions. While probably Trotskyism is maybe for many the same thing, there are many differences. In this way I can know if I have it to do with a person who is actually a liberal in disguise or someone who is "orthodox". The same thing goes for other factions.
As I said ML is not a valid term in my opinion and historically it was used after the establishing and banning of the "left opposition", especially by Stalin. After splits here and there between the soviet union and other countries, where everyone claimed to be the true continuation of ML, I prefer to differ this way. And since other splits after Lenin's dead also claimed to be the true successors of Lenin, I think it is more accurate to handle it this way
As I said ML is not a valid term in my opinion and historically it was used after the establishing and banning of the “left opposition”, especially by Stalin.
Stalin, you say? The Cuban, Vietnamese, Chinese, Korean and many African revolutions were all led by people who called themselves Marxists-Leninists. Strange coincidence, huh? It's like "Lenin" had a massive importance in terms of revolutionary practice, perhaps?
And? Lenin had and has still massive importance even for groups who splitted with the SU or those opposition right or left which where there for a while. So answer me, what are you trying to imply? And of course Stalin, because he is an important figure. ML simply don't just refer to Marx and Lenin and I already wrote about that more concrete in another comment of mine
I'm implying that those who care too much about trying to remove the "Leninist" from Marxist-Leninist are people who do not understand the importance of Lenin. Or perhaps they do and they are doing on purpose like classic revisionists. First comes "why Leninism?" before "why Marxism?"
Well, I don't want to be rude, but where the fuck did I want remove especially Lenin in his importance? I am talking about, that ML is simply not concrete enough and therefore not a term I can work with, only use it in a vague definition, where I ignore the others important figures after him, which added unique thoughts and theories. Referring to myself and talking about communism, the term "marxism" is still something I prefer to use, you can not think about marxism without Lenin. In another comment I explained, that I still use ML where it is needed so someone can still understand me. I don't see any proof, that the way how I handle it is anywhere some revisionist move, where I want to remove Lenin and then probably Marx. The only thing I see is, that I use marxism or some term which can cover the uniqueness of a important person in the history of ML
Well, I don’t want to be rude, but where the fuck did I want remove especially Lenin in his importance?
Right in the fuck where you insist Marxism-Leninism is not a valid term. I don't care if you use "Marxist" with your friends and family, but I do care if you claim it's not a valid term and use the shittiest explanation ever to defend that. We've seen revisionists and opportunists everywhere in history trying their best to distance themselves from Lenin, only to distance themselves from Marx later on. Fuck off with that bullshit.
In every one of those cases, the "minority" position group eventually named themselves something else. Left-opp called themselves leninists and then trotskyists (if they were that particular flavor or left opp). Left deviationists of late Mao eventually settled at MLM to distinguish between the majority opinion there of ML (ML MZT if you want to get fancy, but not necessary because it isn't distinguished from ML in any real scenario relevant to today).
Other nations had different approaches but agree that they are currently ML with differences in conditions and therefore differences in concrete tactics.
But regardless, you are changing a word unecessarily. Everyone who knows anything about it knows what one means with ML. What purpose is there to changing the label for something concrete and existing to which it refers? Call it a Camel for all I care, as long as we know we're referring to the foundation of historical materialism applied to material conditions, it doesn't matter. So changing it should have some benefit, which I'm not convinced exists.
Other nations had different approaches but agree that they are currently ML with differences in conditions and therefore differences in concrete tactics.
Those differences can be large enough, that it fall into contradiction with all those groups and parties claiming to be ML. Split between China and SU was the same thing.
But regardless, you are changing a word unecessarily. Everyone who knows anything about it knows what one means with ML.
I do know it too, or did I make a different a impression? And it is not unecessarily for me, since even Trotsky used ML in his writings and also Stalin, Lenin only talked about marxism itself (self evident). Of course ML was associated with the SU over time.
What purpose is there to changing the label for something concrete and existing to which it refers?
Stalin had his own additions to Lenin and Marx, which differs from others. ML is not giving attention to this, that's why I call it the way how it is referred to a person (At least I learned that I am not ML anymore because of it from the person before you lol). Same way you can talk about Leninism, which refers to Lenin.
Call it a Camel for all I care, as long as we know we're referring to the foundation of historical materialism applied to material conditions, it doesn't matter.
So what's up with your mood right now, how often should I say that this is how I use it? So where does the "we" come from? I mean, its not like that I agitated for it. As long as I am talking with people who use ML seriously, I am using it as well. If I had a discussion with trotskiest (ML not used there), I don't don't have discussion about labels, but I there would be no problem to explain why Stalin would be the continuation of Lenin.
So changing it should have some benefit, which I'm not convinced exists.
As I said, it makes sense for me and that's why I use it. And it has benefits to order the amount of historically important splits, merges and infights in my head. ML is therefore still not a valid term in my opinion. If you think I am just relabeling it, its fine.
Stalin had his own additions to Lenin and Marx, which differs from others. ML is not giving attention to this, that’s why I call it the way how it is referred to a person (At least I learned that I am not ML anymore because of it from the person before you lol). Same way you can talk about Leninism, which refers to Lenin.
Borderline liberal take, bro. Stop focusing on Stalin, Marxism-Leninism was developed by many peoples from many nationalities.
Stop focusing on Stalin, Marxism-Leninism was developed by many peoples from many nationalities.
I am not focusing on Stalin at all. It has simply the same validity for me as to having a term for Luxemburg and I wouldn't call her ML at all (Her theory regarding imperialism was not so good in my opinion).
ML, was developed by many peoples from many nationalities. Some of them had important influence on several revolutions which happened. The thoughts, theory and praxis where sometimes unique in way, that Marxism-Leninism is not enough. So I may call it in a way specially referring too it. Where is the borderline liberal take because of this?
When the contradictions grow and sharpen, there is a dialectical process where the positions then become clear afterwards, and one of those positions sincec Stalin has, up until this point, always been the consensus "ML" position. Right now, there is broad agreement on many positions. I think China is the main one currently, where some ML are saying that it's not going fast enough. But ML still means something clear in this situation, just something with a growing contradiction (like everything else).
ML is a term which Stalin used to describe Lenin's additions. Of course that's how Stalin described it, not how Trotsky wanted people to understand it. That contradiction built up very quickly and made a split, and Trotsky dropped the term and so it's meaning was no longer split. But again, it's just a label. You are just opposed to ML and then feel like it shouldn't be called that because you disagree with it but feel like you still agree with Marx and maybe Lenin.
If it sounds like I had an attidude, I had no intention for that. I was actually paraphrasing a famous speech of Parenti.
If you want to be an island with your own terms, I do have a problem with that. It is a 'we' because you are using language and it's meaningless to create your own language for only yourself. You confuse the terms tin relation to each othergenerally as it exists in a social context and language. That's why there needs to be a good reason that a person takes such an action, and they must be clear in that. I don't think you did either of those.
Hi, I cant continue this discussion any longer, because of some message in a comment somewhere, that I will be muted if I keep engaging. Like, seriously discussing the validity of this term. That's a pity, since a long comment appeared which tries to explain why my position is wrong, but there is probably not much one can do about it here. I wrote this message already to someone else. At least I can say, that the Trotsky thing is new to me and some things as well. I will keep this in mind and think about it, thank you for your comment!
Marxist-Leninist is not valid term in my opinion, because Lenin is the continuation of Marx.
You underestimate the relevance and importance of Lenin. No, Lenin is not a continuation of Marx, Lenin is Marx in practice. It's clear by your rambling that, by stripping "Lenin", that you have no care for revolutionary practice. What you call yourself is irrelevant, but to claim the term is invalid is just an spectacle of ignorance. At this point, you should very well stop calling yourself a "Marxist", even. 😉
You underestimate the relevance and importance of Lenin
Do I? Where? By saying that I would call myself Marxist and not add more things because to it or just by talking about "Marxism" and not "Marxisim-Leninism" in general? That's stupid.
Lenin is not a continuation of Marx, Lenin is Marx in practice
And therefore not a continuation? Mutual exclusive? Some would argue, that Lenin had nothing to do with Marx, like some pseudo-left might do it, but I don't. Lenin is the continuation of Marx and of course Marx in practice.
It's clear by your rambling that, by stripping "Lenin", that you have no care for revolutionary practice.
I just always talk about Marxism as generally term, not adding Engels or Lenin. If this is your proof, that I don't care for revolutionary practice, then revolutionary praxis probably means not much for you.
What you call yourself is irrelevant, but to claim the term is invalid is just an spectacle of ignorance.
I already explained often enough, that ML is still not a valid term for me, it doesnt even stop by Lenin and goes beyond the developments that occurred after his death. Where is the ignorance? That I use a different words which probably makes no difference at all and means the same?
At this point, you should very well stop calling yourself a "Marxist", even. 😉
Thanks for the advice, great analysis at all. By thinking that ML is not valid term and others are better, while I am using ML in discussions, I am probably not a Marxist at all, but a full blood liberal. I will now throw everything away, immigrate to the USA as fast as I can, so I can vote for a party which supports genocide.
Do I? Where? By saying that I would call myself Marxist and not add more things because to it or just by talking about “Marxism” and not “Marxisim-Leninism” in general? That’s stupid.
By insisting on saying the term was invalid, so it's not about what you call yourself. I'm explaining to you that is not only valid, but essential. It's not just a label, it's a political orientation. "Marxism" is broad, Marxism-Leninism is more specific and to the point.
I already explained often enough, that ML is still not a valid term for me, it doesnt even stop by Lenin and goes beyond the developments that occurred after his death. Where is the ignorance?
The fact that you are insisting on this discussion and your position is a political statement. The fact that you insist it's an "invalid term" is either a presentation of your ignorance or cynicism. You could argue Marx is a continuation of Hegel and call yourself a Hegelian for what it's worth. Why don't you call yourself a Hegelian? Why call yourself Marxist at all?
"Marxism" is broad, Marxism-Leninism is more specific and to the point.
It is broad, ML being more concrete still has the lack of being broad, since it tries to cover other historical splits which occurred.
The fact that you are insisting on this discussion and your position is a political statement.
I am just answering comments, simply not ignoring the replies. Since there is also the way to be proven wrong, I don't see the need to ignore.
You could argue Marx is a continuation of Hegel and call yourself a Hegelian for what it's worth. Why don't you call yourself a Hegelian? Why call yourself Marxist at all?
Because there is an important breaking point between Marx and Hegel which also falls into contradiction between each other. So why not Marxist-Leninist? Because in my understanding this would mean, that it simply stops by the later one and is not going beyond this. My collected works of Stalin are even from the soviet "Marx-Engels-Lenin-Stalin" Institute and this to much in my opinion, by simply adding every name. So I came to the conclusion, that ML is not valid term, because it stops at an point, including the absolute importance or Lenin but not what was after that.
Hi, I cant continue this discussion any longer, because of some message in a comment somewhere, that I will be muted if I keep engaging. Like, seriously discussing the validity of this term. That's a pity, since a long comment appeared which tries to explain why my position is wrong, but there is probably not much one can do about it here.
Oh so it was you the most time? I am not looking at names when I answer.
If you want to continue insisting on your flawed reasoning, go ahead.
Look, I tried to explain it quite often, with no bad intention at all. But you ignored most of the time what I wrote, because didn't really took reference to it, you rather mock, being sarcastic. Even since I wrote, that I am simply answering and not insisting on a discussion and also may be proven wrong, your attitude is still the same. If this is the way how you would treat someone that you would like to agitate, I don't think you would be successful, but its of course your decision.
Especially warning to mute one then spontaneously "I take that back", won't made me wanting to discuss with you at all and also not at this thread or however it called on this platform, because you will probably change your opinion on muting however you want. A longer comment made me think about this topic in another way and I will look at it deeper now, because I didn't know few things.
However, there is no need to reply to this comment because it will likely be something sarcastic in a derogatory tone anyway and I will then ignore it then.
You must look at the 20s and 30s in the Soviet Union, especially after Lenin died. I personally only use "Marxist" and this is how I describe myself. Marxist-Leninist is not valid term in my opinion, because Lenin is the continuation of Marx. If I encounter someone who is d'accord with Stalin, Trotsky or maybe Mao, I call them stalinist, trotskyist or whatever. I do it, because they are important differences in what those people think.
Let's say I would think, that Bukharin/Stalin/Trotsky is the man I think has the right thoughts. For me, this would be the continuation of marxism and everything else would be revisionist, reactionary and non-marxist. Don't making difference would be the same as naming everything "tankie".
So I still say I am a Marxist, but if anyone would ask me what my opinion is regarding those figures, I would then say, that I am trotskyist/stalinist/bukharist. I hope it is understandable what I am trying to say.
I know that many here call themself Marxist-Leninist and seriously use this term, but I don't, I don't think it is a valid term. After Stalin there were enough figures who used it anyway. After "sino-soviet split" they both claimed to be the continuation of Marxism-Leninism.
So I always like to ask more questions. While probably Trotskyism is maybe for many the same thing, there are many differences. In this way I can know if I have it to do with a person who is actually a liberal in disguise or someone who is "orthodox". The same thing goes for other factions.
"stalinist" is only used by those opposed to ML tho.
As I said ML is not a valid term in my opinion and historically it was used after the establishing and banning of the "left opposition", especially by Stalin. After splits here and there between the soviet union and other countries, where everyone claimed to be the true continuation of ML, I prefer to differ this way. And since other splits after Lenin's dead also claimed to be the true successors of Lenin, I think it is more accurate to handle it this way
Stalin, you say? The Cuban, Vietnamese, Chinese, Korean and many African revolutions were all led by people who called themselves Marxists-Leninists. Strange coincidence, huh? It's like "Lenin" had a massive importance in terms of revolutionary practice, perhaps?
And? Lenin had and has still massive importance even for groups who splitted with the SU or those opposition right or left which where there for a while. So answer me, what are you trying to imply? And of course Stalin, because he is an important figure. ML simply don't just refer to Marx and Lenin and I already wrote about that more concrete in another comment of mine
I'm implying that those who care too much about trying to remove the "Leninist" from Marxist-Leninist are people who do not understand the importance of Lenin. Or perhaps they do and they are doing on purpose like classic revisionists. First comes "why Leninism?" before "why Marxism?"
Well, I don't want to be rude, but where the fuck did I want remove especially Lenin in his importance? I am talking about, that ML is simply not concrete enough and therefore not a term I can work with, only use it in a vague definition, where I ignore the others important figures after him, which added unique thoughts and theories. Referring to myself and talking about communism, the term "marxism" is still something I prefer to use, you can not think about marxism without Lenin. In another comment I explained, that I still use ML where it is needed so someone can still understand me. I don't see any proof, that the way how I handle it is anywhere some revisionist move, where I want to remove Lenin and then probably Marx. The only thing I see is, that I use marxism or some term which can cover the uniqueness of a important person in the history of ML
Right in the fuck where you insist Marxism-Leninism is not a valid term. I don't care if you use "Marxist" with your friends and family, but I do care if you claim it's not a valid term and use the shittiest explanation ever to defend that. We've seen revisionists and opportunists everywhere in history trying their best to distance themselves from Lenin, only to distance themselves from Marx later on. Fuck off with that bullshit.
In every one of those cases, the "minority" position group eventually named themselves something else. Left-opp called themselves leninists and then trotskyists (if they were that particular flavor or left opp). Left deviationists of late Mao eventually settled at MLM to distinguish between the majority opinion there of ML (ML MZT if you want to get fancy, but not necessary because it isn't distinguished from ML in any real scenario relevant to today).
Other nations had different approaches but agree that they are currently ML with differences in conditions and therefore differences in concrete tactics.
But regardless, you are changing a word unecessarily. Everyone who knows anything about it knows what one means with ML. What purpose is there to changing the label for something concrete and existing to which it refers? Call it a Camel for all I care, as long as we know we're referring to the foundation of historical materialism applied to material conditions, it doesn't matter. So changing it should have some benefit, which I'm not convinced exists.
Those differences can be large enough, that it fall into contradiction with all those groups and parties claiming to be ML. Split between China and SU was the same thing.
I do know it too, or did I make a different a impression? And it is not unecessarily for me, since even Trotsky used ML in his writings and also Stalin, Lenin only talked about marxism itself (self evident). Of course ML was associated with the SU over time.
Stalin had his own additions to Lenin and Marx, which differs from others. ML is not giving attention to this, that's why I call it the way how it is referred to a person (At least I learned that I am not ML anymore because of it from the person before you lol). Same way you can talk about Leninism, which refers to Lenin.
So what's up with your mood right now, how often should I say that this is how I use it? So where does the "we" come from? I mean, its not like that I agitated for it. As long as I am talking with people who use ML seriously, I am using it as well. If I had a discussion with trotskiest (ML not used there), I don't don't have discussion about labels, but I there would be no problem to explain why Stalin would be the continuation of Lenin.
As I said, it makes sense for me and that's why I use it. And it has benefits to order the amount of historically important splits, merges and infights in my head. ML is therefore still not a valid term in my opinion. If you think I am just relabeling it, its fine.
Edit: Added a sentence I forgot at the end.
Borderline liberal take, bro. Stop focusing on Stalin, Marxism-Leninism was developed by many peoples from many nationalities.
I am not focusing on Stalin at all. It has simply the same validity for me as to having a term for Luxemburg and I wouldn't call her ML at all (Her theory regarding imperialism was not so good in my opinion).
ML, was developed by many peoples from many nationalities. Some of them had important influence on several revolutions which happened. The thoughts, theory and praxis where sometimes unique in way, that Marxism-Leninism is not enough. So I may call it in a way specially referring too it. Where is the borderline liberal take because of this?
When the contradictions grow and sharpen, there is a dialectical process where the positions then become clear afterwards, and one of those positions sincec Stalin has, up until this point, always been the consensus "ML" position. Right now, there is broad agreement on many positions. I think China is the main one currently, where some ML are saying that it's not going fast enough. But ML still means something clear in this situation, just something with a growing contradiction (like everything else).
ML is a term which Stalin used to describe Lenin's additions. Of course that's how Stalin described it, not how Trotsky wanted people to understand it. That contradiction built up very quickly and made a split, and Trotsky dropped the term and so it's meaning was no longer split. But again, it's just a label. You are just opposed to ML and then feel like it shouldn't be called that because you disagree with it but feel like you still agree with Marx and maybe Lenin.
If it sounds like I had an attidude, I had no intention for that. I was actually paraphrasing a famous speech of Parenti.
If you want to be an island with your own terms, I do have a problem with that. It is a 'we' because you are using language and it's meaningless to create your own language for only yourself. You confuse the terms tin relation to each othergenerally as it exists in a social context and language. That's why there needs to be a good reason that a person takes such an action, and they must be clear in that. I don't think you did either of those.
Hi, I cant continue this discussion any longer, because of some message in a comment somewhere, that I will be muted if I keep engaging. Like, seriously discussing the validity of this term. That's a pity, since a long comment appeared which tries to explain why my position is wrong, but there is probably not much one can do about it here. I wrote this message already to someone else. At least I can say, that the Trotsky thing is new to me and some things as well. I will keep this in mind and think about it, thank you for your comment!
You underestimate the relevance and importance of Lenin. No, Lenin is not a continuation of Marx, Lenin is Marx in practice. It's clear by your rambling that, by stripping "Lenin", that you have no care for revolutionary practice. What you call yourself is irrelevant, but to claim the term is invalid is just an spectacle of ignorance. At this point, you should very well stop calling yourself a "Marxist", even. 😉
Do I? Where? By saying that I would call myself Marxist and not add more things because to it or just by talking about "Marxism" and not "Marxisim-Leninism" in general? That's stupid.
And therefore not a continuation? Mutual exclusive? Some would argue, that Lenin had nothing to do with Marx, like some pseudo-left might do it, but I don't. Lenin is the continuation of Marx and of course Marx in practice.
I just always talk about Marxism as generally term, not adding Engels or Lenin. If this is your proof, that I don't care for revolutionary practice, then revolutionary praxis probably means not much for you.
I already explained often enough, that ML is still not a valid term for me, it doesnt even stop by Lenin and goes beyond the developments that occurred after his death. Where is the ignorance? That I use a different words which probably makes no difference at all and means the same?
Thanks for the advice, great analysis at all. By thinking that ML is not valid term and others are better, while I am using ML in discussions, I am probably not a Marxist at all, but a full blood liberal. I will now throw everything away, immigrate to the USA as fast as I can, so I can vote for a party which supports genocide.
By insisting on saying the term was invalid, so it's not about what you call yourself. I'm explaining to you that is not only valid, but essential. It's not just a label, it's a political orientation. "Marxism" is broad, Marxism-Leninism is more specific and to the point.
The fact that you are insisting on this discussion and your position is a political statement. The fact that you insist it's an "invalid term" is either a presentation of your ignorance or cynicism. You could argue Marx is a continuation of Hegel and call yourself a Hegelian for what it's worth. Why don't you call yourself a Hegelian? Why call yourself Marxist at all?
It is broad, ML being more concrete still has the lack of being broad, since it tries to cover other historical splits which occurred.
I am just answering comments, simply not ignoring the replies. Since there is also the way to be proven wrong, I don't see the need to ignore.
Because there is an important breaking point between Marx and Hegel which also falls into contradiction between each other. So why not Marxist-Leninist? Because in my understanding this would mean, that it simply stops by the later one and is not going beyond this. My collected works of Stalin are even from the soviet "Marx-Engels-Lenin-Stalin" Institute and this to much in my opinion, by simply adding every name. So I came to the conclusion, that ML is not valid term, because it stops at an point, including the absolute importance or Lenin but not what was after that.
Does Marxism stop at Marx? 😒
Hi, I cant continue this discussion any longer, because of some message in a comment somewhere, that I will be muted if I keep engaging. Like, seriously discussing the validity of this term. That's a pity, since a long comment appeared which tries to explain why my position is wrong, but there is probably not much one can do about it here.
I said myself you'd be muted if you continued, but I take that back. If you want to continue insisting on your flawed reasoning, go ahead.
Oh so it was you the most time? I am not looking at names when I answer.
Look, I tried to explain it quite often, with no bad intention at all. But you ignored most of the time what I wrote, because didn't really took reference to it, you rather mock, being sarcastic. Even since I wrote, that I am simply answering and not insisting on a discussion and also may be proven wrong, your attitude is still the same. If this is the way how you would treat someone that you would like to agitate, I don't think you would be successful, but its of course your decision.
Especially warning to mute one then spontaneously "I take that back", won't made me wanting to discuss with you at all and also not at this thread or however it called on this platform, because you will probably change your opinion on muting however you want. A longer comment made me think about this topic in another way and I will look at it deeper now, because I didn't know few things.
However, there is no need to reply to this comment because it will likely be something sarcastic in a derogatory tone anyway and I will then ignore it then.