• Joe@discuss.tchncs.de
    ·
    10 months ago

    The holodomor was the famine you doofus. It was also not an action taken deliberately by the Soviet government, and historians and scholars agree that the holodomor didn't target Ukraine specifically - it was instead a famine that.hit the Soviet Union as a result of years of war. Do you not know your hostory?

    Here is where a disagreement starts. Yes, there was a widespread famine (and not just in Ukraine).. but it was, as recognised by many scholars, made far more deadly in parts of Ukraine by decrees from above. Collectivisation caused the wider famine, and callous decisions resulted in deliberate starvation of some. This is not something anyone should celebrate or diminish, even though the situation vastly improved in later years.

    Note: I'm travelling today, so most responses will have to wait. Have a good one.

    edit long after the fact: For future readers, here is a ukrainian viewpoint of the Holodomor: https://www.rferl.org/a/historican-anne-applebaum-interview-ukraine-holodomor-famine-stalin/28756181.html

    • Egon [they/them]
      ·
      11 months ago

      Wow you managed to engage with one single point! Very good, though you still haven't answered my question. You also keep to debating the holodomor, as if I disagree there was a famine or something? I don't, we agree there was a famine. Answer my question.
      It's also neat to see you continue to engage in holocaust denial by way of peddling double genocide theory. At no point did the Soviet government deliberately take actions with intent to starve it's population, implying this - and thereby equating it with the holocaust - trivialises the holocaust, as well as spreads misinformation about historical events.
      Did the soviets make mistakes? Yes, many. Did the Soviet government intentionally starve it's citizens? No.
      This is not a debate about the long-since debunked "deliberate" famine where Stalin personally went around with his big spoon and ate all the grain. What made the famine worse? If you are interested in such a discussion I'd recommend actually looking into the data and the historians interpretating it first.
      This thread has good and approachable information an excerpt:

      Even anti-Communist propagandists like Robert Conquest (whose propaganda was cited extensively during the Cold War before most of it was debunked and he was forced to recant his claims over and over again) claim that the landowning class destroyed about 96 million head of cattle, and possibly twice as much tonnage of grain and other foodstock, completely wrecking the food production capacity of the region in the middle of the famine and exacerbating the problem beyond anything seen before.

      I doubt you will look into it though, since you so far continue to be.more interested in condescending cheap shots.

      Here's another one you won't engage with

      Double genocide [1] [2]

      • Joe@discuss.tchncs.de
        ·
        10 months ago

        Thanks for the links. I've been reading. It is not far off my understanding. It's novel to me that anyone claims that the famine itself was deliberate. I've never heard anyone claiming that before.

        Anyway, I noticed that https://lb.ua/news/2010/01/14/19793_nalivaychenko_nazval_kolichestvo_zh.html says 10 million, while https://hexbear.net/post/20004 links to it and claims it says 4 million. I guess the wayback machine should be checked.

        My day was long, I'm tired, and there is more to read. I'll have to re-read your previous comments to find the Q that interests you.

        • Egon [they/them]
          ·
          10 months ago

          I appreciate you taking the time to look into the material I've provided you.

          Anyway, I noticed that https://lb.ua/news/2010/01/14/19793_nalivaychenko_nazval_kolichestvo_zh.html says 10 million, while https://hexbear.net/post/20004 links to it and claims it says 4 million. I guess the wayback machine should be checked.

          That's odd. Good catch!