You’d have a good point if the ukranian state was doing some kind of gloryless Suicide charge with them. Based on all they’ve said they’re integrating the Nazi militia into the state to fight alongside normal people and become war heroes.
If you'd send them only on suicide missions they wouldn't cooperate. Still, each Nazi on the front is one non-Nazi not needed at the front.
As to heroes: Needs must. In Germany we're nuking Nazis in the military from orbit, we're also disallowing Nazis from fighting in Ukraine's foreign legions, because we don't want to have Nazis skilled in combat. That, however, is a secondary concern when you've got Russia invading you.
As to heroes the second: The likes of right sector are very unpopular, politically speaking, in Ukraine. There's plenty of non-Nazi war heroes -- another reason to not have Nazis fight alone, so that there's no valour that they can earn alone. They won't be able to capitalise on having fought.
Germany would never do what the ukranian state is doing, but they need every fighting man. Never mind the fact that ukranian doctrine has been combined arms warfare with relatively small numbers of soldiers so they’re not actually in a situation where numbers are a huge benefit.
The naziism is a serious problem and it’s good that azov “denazified” but also they’re not popular and it’s no big deal.
They can’t capitalize on having fought and aren’t gaining any standing, but azov was being lauded in the press as defenders of Mariupol.
You’re just saying whatever let’s you keep defending the Nazis.
Now it could be that you want to defend the ukranian state, but you don’t need to rush to its side every time. It can be making grave mistakes and doing the wrong thing by any measure and still be a state you support. Just don’t support the Nazis, that’s all I ask.
Take a page from the communists and limit yourself to critical support.
Take a page from the communists and limit yourself to critical support.
Take a page from Antifa and not call a huge organisation Nazi because there's a couple of Nazis in there.
My main issue, here, from the beginning, has been you trivialising the term. You still do it, without reflection, in an attempt to win an argument on the internet. As if it was some two-sided partisan US politics or such.
Take that same exact page and recognize that if there’s ten liberals at the table with a Nazi there’s eleven Nazis at the table.
An organization that accepts Nazis is a Nazi organization.
I’m not trivializing the fact that the ukranian state actively welcomes Nazis. I’m responding appropriately with revulsion and disdain.
To the extent that there is any path to peace that leaves Donetsk and Luhansk in the control of the ukranian state, it does not hinge on accepting and welcoming Nazis.
If the state is doing so, it’s not out of necessity, but alignment.
There is no argument to be won here. Anyone reading this thread of comments will wonder why it’s so important that Nazis are accepted. I’m recommending you, as a person who ought to be familiar with the insidious nature of fascism, stop defending Nazis.
If the state is doing so, it’s not out of necessity, but alignment.
So then you're ready to call Russia a Nazi state over fielding a fuckton of fascist regiments? Have a look at Utkin's tattoos. Everyone in Russia knew, noone higher up cared.
They’re both liberal fascist states. One was put in place by nato after they realized they couldn’t just carve it up, the other was put in place by nato to oppose the first when they denied it membership.
Stop deflecting and trying to place me in support or opposition to the members of this absolutely avoidable conflict and most importantly: stop defending nazis.
One was put in place by nato after they realized they couldn’t just carve it up
Oh my sides I dare you to say that in Russia. Bring a stopwatch so you can time how long it takes for you to arrive in a prison camp in Siberia. The FSB doesn't suffer that kind of talk, "Russia is controlled by its enemies" (from their POV. In reality Russia has exactly one enemy: Itself).
this absolutely avoidable
Absolutely avoidable, true: Russia could stop being imperialist and, for a change, and harkening back to Lenin's times, focus on developing itself. Like Ukraine did. Which is why the Siloviki in Russia can't have that happen, it sets a bad precedent for a culturally related people to gets its shit in order, people actually getting what they want, being better off, all that kind of stuff.
Okay first things first, I never said Russia was controlled by its enemies, second:
This isn’t about my views on geopolitics, it’s about ohs you need to stop defending Nazis. Do that and we can have a wide ranging conversation about any number of topics.
Okay first things first, I never said Russia was controlled by its enemies,
Explain that to the FSB officer.
But first, stop defending Nazis!
I never defended Nazis, and you have yet to make an argument that doesn't bog down to "I hate that /u/barsoap is right about symbols". It's you who's trivialising the term.
What’s not a Nazi symbol, the wolfsangel (which you agreed was a Nazi symbol in the context of a right wing militia just a few days ago) or the black sun (whose removal you claimed was semiotic denazification enough)?
Instead of making me dredge up terrible things you’ve said, why not just stop defending Nazis?
Azov isn't a Nazi org any more, thus the Wolfsangel is fine. Because there was more than semiotic denazification. You also can't be publicly/actively racist or homophobic and whatever inside Azov Ukraine really cracked down on associated politics as a whole. As said: If Azov was still a Nazi org, why did so many Nazis leave?
And are you seriously asking whether the black sun is a Nazi symbol. The SS used it in an esoteric context, the only other use I'm aware of is use esotericists using it as a specific symbol of evil, "a nightmare that feels like paradise while you're asleep", but that's an obscure corner of an obscure corner. Also, based as fuck.
Of course I’m not asking. I’m responding to your assertion that after 2015 azov wasn’t spreading nazism. They clearly were both incubating and spreading it during that time. I chose the example most apropos to our discussion and brought up their semiotics. You said it (without specification) wasn’t a nazi symbol and I asked which of the two nazi symbols wasn’t one.
So, stop providing cover for the spread of Nazism. Stop defending Nazis.
Now how many Nazis can a group have before the wolfsangel is a problem? We agree that Nazis use it as a dogwhistle, we agree that in the context of a far right militia it’s clearly Nazi imagery. Is it half? If your group is half Nazis you get a pass? One quarter? One singular Nazi? I’d argue that since the context is a far right militia that just fucking last year claimed to have “denazified” the number is zero. You can’t use the same imagery you used last year to appeal to Nazis and credibly claim that it’s different now.
I say that because I’m not gullible and I don’t defend Nazis.
The only sensible use a society can make of nazis is as catapult ammunition. You DO NOT, under any circumstances, want to give fascists actual combat training and military action. That's how you get Freikorps after the war. Why would you want that?
Because read a bit more into the thread I addressed that. Right-wing bullshit is politically rather less popular in Ukraine than it was in WWI-era Germany. Context matters.
No, they're bad Nazis, obviously, as all Nazis are bad. But currently they're engaged in an activity which is beneficial.
Why are you protecting Nazis from dying at the front? Why are you so worried about their well-being? Stop protecting Nazis!
Oh so you’re defending specifically the nazis fighting Russia.
Interesting stance for a German to take. 🤔
You can, as always, stop defending Nazis.
I'm also in favour of sending the proud boys to the front in case of Canada invading the US. Really, any defensive situation.
Making them fight defensive wars is the only sensible use a society can make of fascists. In more senses than one.
You’d have a good point if the ukranian state was doing some kind of gloryless Suicide charge with them. Based on all they’ve said they’re integrating the Nazi militia into the state to fight alongside normal people and become war heroes.
Stop finding excuses to defend Nazis.
If you'd send them only on suicide missions they wouldn't cooperate. Still, each Nazi on the front is one non-Nazi not needed at the front.
As to heroes: Needs must. In Germany we're nuking Nazis in the military from orbit, we're also disallowing Nazis from fighting in Ukraine's foreign legions, because we don't want to have Nazis skilled in combat. That, however, is a secondary concern when you've got Russia invading you.
As to heroes the second: The likes of right sector are very unpopular, politically speaking, in Ukraine. There's plenty of non-Nazi war heroes -- another reason to not have Nazis fight alone, so that there's no valour that they can earn alone. They won't be able to capitalise on having fought.
See this is why I keep pushing you.
Germany would never do what the ukranian state is doing, but they need every fighting man. Never mind the fact that ukranian doctrine has been combined arms warfare with relatively small numbers of soldiers so they’re not actually in a situation where numbers are a huge benefit.
The naziism is a serious problem and it’s good that azov “denazified” but also they’re not popular and it’s no big deal.
They can’t capitalize on having fought and aren’t gaining any standing, but azov was being lauded in the press as defenders of Mariupol.
You’re just saying whatever let’s you keep defending the Nazis.
Now it could be that you want to defend the ukranian state, but you don’t need to rush to its side every time. It can be making grave mistakes and doing the wrong thing by any measure and still be a state you support. Just don’t support the Nazis, that’s all I ask.
Take a page from the communists and limit yourself to critical support.
Take a page from Antifa and not call a huge organisation Nazi because there's a couple of Nazis in there.
My main issue, here, from the beginning, has been you trivialising the term. You still do it, without reflection, in an attempt to win an argument on the internet. As if it was some two-sided partisan US politics or such.
Take that same exact page and recognize that if there’s ten liberals at the table with a Nazi there’s eleven Nazis at the table.
An organization that accepts Nazis is a Nazi organization.
I’m not trivializing the fact that the ukranian state actively welcomes Nazis. I’m responding appropriately with revulsion and disdain.
To the extent that there is any path to peace that leaves Donetsk and Luhansk in the control of the ukranian state, it does not hinge on accepting and welcoming Nazis.
If the state is doing so, it’s not out of necessity, but alignment.
There is no argument to be won here. Anyone reading this thread of comments will wonder why it’s so important that Nazis are accepted. I’m recommending you, as a person who ought to be familiar with the insidious nature of fascism, stop defending Nazis.
So then you're ready to call Russia a Nazi state over fielding a fuckton of fascist regiments? Have a look at Utkin's tattoos. Everyone in Russia knew, noone higher up cared.
They’re both liberal fascist states. One was put in place by nato after they realized they couldn’t just carve it up, the other was put in place by nato to oppose the first when they denied it membership.
Stop deflecting and trying to place me in support or opposition to the members of this absolutely avoidable conflict and most importantly: stop defending nazis.
Oh my sides I dare you to say that in Russia. Bring a stopwatch so you can time how long it takes for you to arrive in a prison camp in Siberia. The FSB doesn't suffer that kind of talk, "Russia is controlled by its enemies" (from their POV. In reality Russia has exactly one enemy: Itself).
Absolutely avoidable, true: Russia could stop being imperialist and, for a change, and harkening back to Lenin's times, focus on developing itself. Like Ukraine did. Which is why the Siloviki in Russia can't have that happen, it sets a bad precedent for a culturally related people to gets its shit in order, people actually getting what they want, being better off, all that kind of stuff.
Okay first things first, I never said Russia was controlled by its enemies, second:
This isn’t about my views on geopolitics, it’s about ohs you need to stop defending Nazis. Do that and we can have a wide ranging conversation about any number of topics.
But first, stop defending Nazis!
Explain that to the FSB officer.
I never defended Nazis, and you have yet to make an argument that doesn't bog down to "I hate that /u/barsoap is right about symbols". It's you who's trivialising the term.
I’m not trivializing anything.
You are saying that azov battalion using the wolfsangel is not a nazi symbol.
It’s a defense of Nazis because you’re providing cover for the spread of their ideology. You need to stop defending Nazis.
Ok you've got me. Now show me where Azov is spreading Nazi ideology. Post-2015. I'm waiting.
What would you call wearing and waving a Nazi symbol?
Stop defending Nazis!
It's not a Nazi symbol. Are Motorhead fans Nazis because they wear Iron Crosses?
What’s not a Nazi symbol, the wolfsangel (which you agreed was a Nazi symbol in the context of a right wing militia just a few days ago) or the black sun (whose removal you claimed was semiotic denazification enough)?
Instead of making me dredge up terrible things you’ve said, why not just stop defending Nazis?
Azov isn't a Nazi org any more, thus the Wolfsangel is fine. Because there was more than semiotic denazification. You also can't be publicly/actively racist or homophobic and whatever inside Azov Ukraine really cracked down on associated politics as a whole. As said: If Azov was still a Nazi org, why did so many Nazis leave?
And are you seriously asking whether the black sun is a Nazi symbol. The SS used it in an esoteric context, the only other use I'm aware of is use esotericists using it as a specific symbol of evil, "a nightmare that feels like paradise while you're asleep", but that's an obscure corner of an obscure corner. Also, based as fuck.
Of course I’m not asking. I’m responding to your assertion that after 2015 azov wasn’t spreading nazism. They clearly were both incubating and spreading it during that time. I chose the example most apropos to our discussion and brought up their semiotics. You said it (without specification) wasn’t a nazi symbol and I asked which of the two nazi symbols wasn’t one.
So, stop providing cover for the spread of Nazism. Stop defending Nazis.
Now how many Nazis can a group have before the wolfsangel is a problem? We agree that Nazis use it as a dogwhistle, we agree that in the context of a far right militia it’s clearly Nazi imagery. Is it half? If your group is half Nazis you get a pass? One quarter? One singular Nazi? I’d argue that since the context is a far right militia that just fucking last year claimed to have “denazified” the number is zero. You can’t use the same imagery you used last year to appeal to Nazis and credibly claim that it’s different now.
I say that because I’m not gullible and I don’t defend Nazis.
The only sensible use a society can make of nazis is as catapult ammunition. You DO NOT, under any circumstances, want to give fascists actual combat training and military action. That's how you get Freikorps after the war. Why would you want that?
Because read a bit more into the thread I addressed that. Right-wing bullshit is politically rather less popular in Ukraine than it was in WWI-era Germany. Context matters.