What does incarceration rate have to do with how good the country is? Do you really believe that the income is more equal in China? If you are going to talk about the "concentration camps" on the USA border I'm going to need photo evidence too. Here is a photo of the camp in Xinjiang:
What does incarceration rate have to do with how good the country is?
not "how good it is" "How it treats its people" America locks up its people way more (531/100k) than other China (119/100k). Is imprisoning people treating them well?
Kids in cages. There's some photo's there and I think you'll probably respect WaPo as a source.
removed externally hosted image
You can try again but I'm gonna guess that it is just a picture of a building or some prisoners with no context on how many people are there or why they are there.
I apologize for saying "how good it is." I was in a rush and couldn't think of a better phrase.
I just read through the article from the Washington Post you linked. That really is bad and I believe that the Trump government should not have treated the (although illegal) immigrants. The grim appearance of that facility really isn't something that the immigrants should have faced when they set foot on the US. However, compare that to the situation in Xinjiang. Here is an opinion post from the Washington Post. What China is doing to its Uyghurs is genocide. Not that it justifies anything that the US have done to its immigrants, but in comparison what the US is doing seem pretty mild.
that's not news that is an opinion piece that references Zenz who is a liar and Nazi sympathiser.
The UN has done a fact finding Mission and they said there is no evidence of a Uyghur Genocide. It didn't happen.
Yes there are Vocational schools in Xinjiang but that is to teach people trades to lift themselves out of poverty. The only "culture" being erased is religious extremist terrorism that snuck in through Afghanistan when USA pushed the Taliban out of Afghanistan. Yes there was a rapid increase in birth control measures in Xinjiang but that is what happens when women are given education, economic self determination, and access to proper medical care. They get a IUD so they can focus on living their lives the way they want to instead of being slaves to men who use them as domestic servants and baby incubators.
Zenz based his entire "genocide" theory off statistics and bad math because he is involved in the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation. It is an organization built to spread hate against communism. They hate Communism because the USSR killed 7/10 nazis that died in WW2. The large majority of "Victims of Communism" were Nazis and the people memorializing them are nazis too.
I just clicked that link and, wow, that tweet was quite stupid. He should not have said that. What the Nazis did was unexcusable. However, please keep this in mind - that being a Nazi sympathizer does not automatically invalidate one's opinions on other topics.
The UN has done a fact finding Mission and they said there is no evidence of a Uyghur Genocide. It didn't happen.
China is one of the five most powerful members of the UN (the permanent members of the security council). Though the security council does not have much to do with the investigation directly, there is no gainsaying that China has had a certain degree of influence. It is entirely possible that the UN decided to overlook their crimes due to pressure from China.
Yes there are Vocational schools in Xinjiang. [...] and baby incubators.
When I told you that the Xinjiang camps are committing genocide or when you saw Zenz claiming the same how did you feel? You were thinking that I gobbled up and regurgitated all the US propaganda and that this is just a conspiracy theory because I couldn't give concrete proof, weren't you? This is also exactly how I feel toward your claims except that the propaganda you gobbled up were Chinese. Besides, I am pretty sure that when women are given more education, they decide not to have so many children either by using condoms or having less sex rather than getting IUDs.
being a Nazi sympathizer does not automatically invalidate one's opinions on other topics
I'll fight you on that especially when the "other topics" are "opposing Communist states."
It is entirely possible that the UN decided to overlook their crimes due to pressure from China.
UN is a China Puppet? GTFO. The Peoples Republic of China wanted to join the UN in the 1950s but wasn't granted membership until 1971 despite being the government representing over a fifth (22%) of the population of the planet.
You were thinking that I gobbled up and regurgitated all the US propaganda and that this is just a conspiracy theory
China is not committing genocide in Xinjiang camps the only one saying they are is a nazi sympathiser. If you are saying it it is only because you have not recognized that it is propaganda spread to delegitimize a communist government and rehabilitate fascism.
Besides, I am pretty sure that when women are given more education, they decide not to have so many children either by using condoms or having less sex rather than getting IUDs.
This is peak "I have never discussed contraception with a woman." If you are going to choose between having less sex and fucking any time the mood takes you what will you choose? If you can choose between having to insist your partner wear a condom or just not having to worry about it what would you choose? No offense if you are asexual or whatever but this is like pure male virgin ignorance.
No offence but your lack of media literacy is showing..
You understand that using WaPo as a source for American wrong doings is not the same as using WaPo as a source for wrong doings it's geopolitical rival. You'd need a Chinese outlet admitting to their faults for it to be equivalent..
Nonetheless I clicked on your link:
The disclosure comes in an investigative report from the Associated Press and a new research report by scholar Adrian Zenz for the Jamestown Foundation.
I hope I don't sound rude but it really sounds like you only consider WaPo trustworthy when it's convenient for you. Besides, the media in China are heavily controlled by the government. I don't think a news outlet would survive if they dared to report such things.
Literally the second paragraph...
Sorry, I don't understand how that makes this any less trustworthy?
I hope I don’t sound rude but it really sounds like you only consider WaPo trustworthy when it’s convenient for you.
That's not quite what they're saying. They're saying WaPo is also subject to censorship and coercion, so their word holds more weight when it's a topic where they might be penalised for publishing. If you don't think there are any Chinese sources that can publish things critical of China, then you can still follow carl_marks_1312's methodology in part by finding articles from sources with a free press but geopolitically aligned with China.
Sorry, I don’t understand how that makes this any less trustworthy?
To us, Adrian Zenz automatically means you can dismiss the evidence. The person you're talking to went in with that assumption, and then was lambasting you for not noticing such an obvious and glaring problem with the article. So that's where the disconnect comes from. Of course without that assumption the comment doesn't make sense.
Zenz is a garbage person, but more importantly he's not reliable. He's verifiably been caught lying several times. The tweet you commented on is out of context. I don't know what the context is, it probably doesn't change what's being said, but without reading the context I can't know if it's a justifiable thing to say. Perhaps it was. Perhaps he was explaining Nazi mentality without trying to justify it. It doesn't matter. Zenz is a bad source because he's a liar primarily. He uses bad science and statistics, he makes wild inferences, he pretends not to notice mistakes that he must've noticed, etc. He only ever cites circular sources. That is to say media reports of his own publishings.
I actually don't know if this image is fake or not, could be from a film for all I know. It's a DDG search result. But then you didn't actually research the origin of your photo either.
Edit: This comment does not address the ICE concentration camps and is only replying to the quoted text. To be clear.
My photo was taken from the Wikipedia article for the Xinjiang internment camps. Taken in April 2017, the image is titled Detainee in a Xinjiang Re-education Camp located in Lop County listening to "de-radicalization" talks. The photo you linked to was taken in the Arizona State Prison Complex: https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/2020/05/20/early-release-arizona-prisons-matter-public-health-not-politics/5218072002/.
I actually already knew where you found that photo. But it's simply mislabelled on Wikipedia. This is where the image is from. https://web.archive.org/web/20180820154817/https://baijiahao.baidu.com/s?id=1564669932542581&wfr=spider&for=pc
This is the earliest upload of that image known to me. It's from a regular prison in Xinjiang where convicted criminals who went through a legal trial are incarcerated. It's not related to the de-radicalisation program that the western media calls cultural genocide and suspect is happening in concentration camps.
Sorry, your link https://web.archive.org/web/20180820154817/https://baijiahao.baidu.com/s?id=1564669932542581&wfr=spider&for=pc is broken. Web.archive.org tells me that it "got an HTTP 301 response at crawl time." Can you take a screenshot of it?
Wow, so it appears that those blue-shirted people are just inmates of a regular prison. Oh well, I guess I don't actually have any photo of those camps.
I'm very invested in this and have spent a lot of time looking for photographic evidence. I can't find any. And it's a horrible search to be honest, there's a lot of harrowing photos online. But at this point I'm completely confident in believing the concentration camp story is a hoax.
What does incarceration rate have to do with how good the country is? Do you really believe that the income is more equal in China? If you are going to talk about the "concentration camps" on the USA border I'm going to need photo evidence too. Here is a photo of the camp in Xinjiang:
::: spoiler
No, this photo is not fake.
not "how good it is" "How it treats its people" America locks up its people way more (531/100k) than other China (119/100k). Is imprisoning people treating them well?
Kids in cages. There's some photo's there and I think you'll probably respect WaPo as a source.
You can try again but I'm gonna guess that it is just a picture of a building or some prisoners with no context on how many people are there or why they are there.
I apologize for saying "how good it is." I was in a rush and couldn't think of a better phrase.
I just read through the article from the Washington Post you linked. That really is bad and I believe that the Trump government should not have treated the (although illegal) immigrants. The grim appearance of that facility really isn't something that the immigrants should have faced when they set foot on the US. However, compare that to the situation in Xinjiang. Here is an opinion post from the Washington Post. What China is doing to its Uyghurs is genocide. Not that it justifies anything that the US have done to its immigrants, but in comparison what the US is doing seem pretty mild.
that's not news that is an opinion piece that references Zenz who is a liar and Nazi sympathiser.
The UN has done a fact finding Mission and they said there is no evidence of a Uyghur Genocide. It didn't happen.
Yes there are Vocational schools in Xinjiang but that is to teach people trades to lift themselves out of poverty. The only "culture" being erased is religious extremist terrorism that snuck in through Afghanistan when USA pushed the Taliban out of Afghanistan. Yes there was a rapid increase in birth control measures in Xinjiang but that is what happens when women are given education, economic self determination, and access to proper medical care. They get a IUD so they can focus on living their lives the way they want to instead of being slaves to men who use them as domestic servants and baby incubators.
Zenz based his entire "genocide" theory off statistics and bad math because he is involved in the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation. It is an organization built to spread hate against communism. They hate Communism because the USSR killed 7/10 nazis that died in WW2. The large majority of "Victims of Communism" were Nazis and the people memorializing them are nazis too.
I literally stated that in my comment. You even quoted it.
I just clicked that link and, wow, that tweet was quite stupid. He should not have said that. What the Nazis did was unexcusable. However, please keep this in mind - that being a Nazi sympathizer does not automatically invalidate one's opinions on other topics.
China is one of the five most powerful members of the UN (the permanent members of the security council). Though the security council does not have much to do with the investigation directly, there is no gainsaying that China has had a certain degree of influence. It is entirely possible that the UN decided to overlook their crimes due to pressure from China.
When I told you that the Xinjiang camps are committing genocide or when you saw Zenz claiming the same how did you feel? You were thinking that I gobbled up and regurgitated all the US propaganda and that this is just a conspiracy theory because I couldn't give concrete proof, weren't you? This is also exactly how I feel toward your claims except that the propaganda you gobbled up were Chinese. Besides, I am pretty sure that when women are given more education, they decide not to have so many children either by using condoms or having less sex rather than getting IUDs.
I'll fight you on that especially when the "other topics" are "opposing Communist states."
UN is a China Puppet? GTFO. The Peoples Republic of China wanted to join the UN in the 1950s but wasn't granted membership until 1971 despite being the government representing over a fifth (22%) of the population of the planet.
China is not committing genocide in Xinjiang camps the only one saying they are is a nazi sympathiser. If you are saying it it is only because you have not recognized that it is propaganda spread to delegitimize a communist government and rehabilitate fascism.
This is peak "I have never discussed contraception with a woman." If you are going to choose between having less sex and fucking any time the mood takes you what will you choose? If you can choose between having to insist your partner wear a condom or just not having to worry about it what would you choose? No offense if you are asexual or whatever but this is like pure male virgin ignorance.
No offence but your lack of media literacy is showing..
You understand that using WaPo as a source for American wrong doings is not the same as using WaPo as a source for wrong doings it's geopolitical rival. You'd need a Chinese outlet admitting to their faults for it to be equivalent..
Nonetheless I clicked on your link:
Literally the second paragraph...
I hope I don't sound rude but it really sounds like you only consider WaPo trustworthy when it's convenient for you. Besides, the media in China are heavily controlled by the government. I don't think a news outlet would survive if they dared to report such things.
Sorry, I don't understand how that makes this any less trustworthy?
That's not quite what they're saying. They're saying WaPo is also subject to censorship and coercion, so their word holds more weight when it's a topic where they might be penalised for publishing. If you don't think there are any Chinese sources that can publish things critical of China, then you can still follow carl_marks_1312's methodology in part by finding articles from sources with a free press but geopolitically aligned with China.
To us, Adrian Zenz automatically means you can dismiss the evidence. The person you're talking to went in with that assumption, and then was lambasting you for not noticing such an obvious and glaring problem with the article. So that's where the disconnect comes from. Of course without that assumption the comment doesn't make sense.
Zenz is a garbage person, but more importantly he's not reliable. He's verifiably been caught lying several times. The tweet you commented on is out of context. I don't know what the context is, it probably doesn't change what's being said, but without reading the context I can't know if it's a justifiable thing to say. Perhaps it was. Perhaps he was explaining Nazi mentality without trying to justify it. It doesn't matter. Zenz is a bad source because he's a liar primarily. He uses bad science and statistics, he makes wild inferences, he pretends not to notice mistakes that he must've noticed, etc. He only ever cites circular sources. That is to say media reports of his own publishings.
deleted by creator
Here's a photo of a camp in the USA.
I actually don't know if this image is fake or not, could be from a film for all I know. It's a DDG search result. But then you didn't actually research the origin of your photo either.
Edit: This comment does not address the ICE concentration camps and is only replying to the quoted text. To be clear.
My photo was taken from the Wikipedia article for the Xinjiang internment camps. Taken in April 2017, the image is titled Detainee in a Xinjiang Re-education Camp located in Lop County listening to "de-radicalization" talks. The photo you linked to was taken in the Arizona State Prison Complex: https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/2020/05/20/early-release-arizona-prisons-matter-public-health-not-politics/5218072002/.
I actually already knew where you found that photo. But it's simply mislabelled on Wikipedia. This is where the image is from. https://web.archive.org/web/20180820154817/https://baijiahao.baidu.com/s?id=1564669932542581&wfr=spider&for=pc
This is the earliest upload of that image known to me. It's from a regular prison in Xinjiang where convicted criminals who went through a legal trial are incarcerated. It's not related to the de-radicalisation program that the western media calls cultural genocide and suspect is happening in concentration camps.
Edit: New link.
Sorry, your link
https://web.archive.org/web/20180820154817/https://baijiahao.baidu.com/s?id=1564669932542581&wfr=spider&for=pcis broken. Web.archive.org tells me that it "got an HTTP 301 response at crawl time." Can you take a screenshot of it?Yes, no problem.
Here's the quoted text.
用情感敲开心灵大门 用说理舒缓群众情绪
石亭资讯 百家号17-04-1423:59
“春雨贵如油，下得满街溜”。一夜春雨，麦苗在返青，杨柳在吐绿，杏花在怒放，和田大地处处呈现一派万物复苏、生机盎然的生命色彩。4月7日，洛浦县恰尔巴格乡运动场人山人海，红旗招展。放眼望去，两万余名群众纹丝不动，虽然天公不作美，下起了毛毛细雨，地上渐渐有了泥泞，但仍然挡不住听讲的热情。有的群众把塑料袋罩在头上挡雨，许多群众席地而坐，大家都有一个共同的心声，慕名前来聆听自治区司法厅“去极端化”宣讲团的精彩宣讲。
据悉，4月7日上午，自治区司法厅“去极端化”宣讲团来到洛浦县恰尔巴格乡，展开了为期3天的“去极端化”大宣讲。这次宣讲集中在恰尔巴格乡、杭桂镇、山普鲁镇三个分会场以及洛浦县教育转化中心和影剧院两个专场。布亚乡、纳瓦乡、洛浦镇就近集中在分会场，全县共设5个会场，覆盖到所有乡镇和重点村，近6万余名宗教人士、非教职人员、重点特殊人群、16岁－45岁易感人群、乡（镇）村干部、村支部书记、寺管会主任、驻村工作组少数民族干部、个体工商户、朝觐和拟朝觐人员、女洗尸人员，部分教师和村民代表参加宣讲活动。
宣讲中，自治区政协常委、自治区促进和谐预防犯罪宣讲办公室主任阿布都瓦依提·赛迪瓦卡斯紧紧围绕社会稳定和长治久安总目标，结合党的民族宗教政策和法律法规、民族传统文化习俗等内容，深入揭批宗教极端思想的现实危害和“三股势力”的滔天罪行，讲述近年来发生在身边的典型案件事件，并穿插讲解法律知识，讲述社会主义核心价值观和做人做事的道理、让广大群众在聆听中思考、理解，懂得遵纪守法的重要性，以此引导广大干部群众要学法、知法、懂法、守法，争取做一名爱国爱疆、遵纪守法的好公民。
阿布都瓦依提主任在宣讲中对现场听众一一列举了这些年来特别是改革开放30多年以来新疆翻天覆地的变化，党中央对新疆少数民族地区群众的关心和厚爱，党的富民政策给南疆农村带来的实惠和巨变，内地19个援疆省（市）给予新疆无私的援助，“一带一路”给新疆特别是南疆即将创造的发展机遇，等等。讲清楚了以习近平同志为核心的党中央对新疆各族干部群众的亲切关怀；讲清楚了党的各项惠民政策；讲清楚了党的民族宗教政策和法律法规；讲清楚了援疆省（市）对新疆社会稳定和长治久安做出的无私奉献；讲清楚了伊斯兰教的传统教义教规和正信正行；讲清楚了宗教极端思想和暴力恐怖活动的严重危害；讲清楚了新疆各族人民共同团结奋斗，共同繁荣发展的重要意义；讲清楚了新疆在新中国成立以来特别是改革开放以来发生的巨大变化。
在与宗教人士交流互动中，阿布都瓦依提主任积极引导宗教人士牢记总书记嘱托，紧紧围绕社会稳定和长治久安总目标，在爱国爱民、提高造诣、遵规守法、抵制极端四个方面带头发挥积极作用。宣讲期间，阿布都瓦依提畅谈了对党的宗教方针政策、自治区党委关心爱国宗教人士等工作的切身感受，让宗教人士用心体会自治区党委在财政极为困难的情况下，投入大量资金推进清真寺“七进两有”建设，加强爱国宗教人士培养培训，发放误工补贴，完善医疗、养老等社会保障措施的良苦用心，教育宗教人士爱祖国、感党恩、听党话、跟党走，争做“五好宗教人士”。
随后，2名服刑人员上台现身说法，讲述了自己的悔过心路历程，呼吁在场听众擦亮眼睛、明辨是非，远离非法宗教、远离宗教极端。台上忏悔声声，台下泪流满面，许多听众不停地擦拭眼泪，有的感慨万千，一时语塞。服刑人员艾某的爸爸、妈妈和哥哥坐在宣讲现场第一排认真聆听着宣讲，他们一把鼻涕一把泪听完了艾某现身说法，艾某的妈妈掩饰不住自己的激动，泪水不停地在眼眶里打转，她带着自己从家里制作的一面锦旗送给了宣讲团的民警。锦旗上写着：“献给自治区司法厅和监狱管理局：感谢监狱各级领导和干部同志给我们孩子各方面的关爱和教育；感谢阿布都瓦依提老师为提高我们孩子的政治、法律意识，为我们孩子成为一个合格的公民而做的一次又一次的工作。我的孩子今天悔悟醒过，阿布都瓦依提老师功劳很大。服刑人员艾某家属：和田县罕艾日克镇羌村依明·吐合提。”
司法厅“去极端化”宣讲团副团长、第一监狱监狱长伊布拉音·艾买提说：“刚才，服刑人员艾再子·依明家属通过赠送锦旗的方式表达了对党和政府的感恩之情，虽然这只是一面普通的锦旗，但代表的是广大人民群众的心声，汇聚了对党和政府的感恩之意。艾再子·依明犯下了不可饶恕的罪行，但祖国母亲没有抛弃他，在阿布都瓦依提主任的精心指导和广大监狱民警不厌其烦的教诲下，忏悔自己的罪行，回归正义，获得了像今天这样面向社会现身说教的机会。在押罪犯中还有很多像艾再子·依明这样的罪犯。把在押罪犯改造成为守法的公民是我们一贯的宗旨，在今后监狱改造实践当中，我们将一如既往地聚焦总目标、盯着总目标、落实总目标，牢记使命、不负重托，不忘初心、砥砺前行，用心用情教育转化更多的服刑人员，为使罪犯改造成为对国家、对社会、对家庭有用的守法公民而努力。”
洛浦县恰尔巴格乡加依托格拉克村党支部书记阿布力米提·买提托乎提说：“自治区司法厅‘去极端化’宣讲团不远千里、不辞辛劳来到我们家乡宣讲，给我们带来了党和政府的声音，像春风一样温暖了基层群众的心。阿布都瓦依提主任冒着雨坐在台上宣讲，他的宗教学识造诣高，政策法律知识丰富，讲的故事群众爱听。特别是他把群众当作自己的亲人，宣讲充满感情。他的说理有根有据，打动了我们的心。如果我们在前十年听到这样好的宣讲，今天我们的村民就不会被宗教极端毒害得这么深，希望司法厅宣讲团在我们家乡多讲一讲，把我们的村民从宗教极端危害中解脱出来。”
杭桂镇吾斯塘村开买尔汗·艾合买江动情地说：“听了阿布都瓦依提的宣讲我豁然开朗，我明白了我的丈夫被收押的原因，是宗教极端害了我全家。阿主任就是‘及时雨’，他把真理送到了我们的心坎上，解救了很多家庭，挽救了一些痴迷不悟的维吾尔族人。想一想，共产党的政策确实好，不仅没有处理这些受宗教极端思想污染的人，还把他们集中起来管吃、管住进行学习培训和教育转化，世界上哪一个国家也做不到这一点。我现在要做的就是配合政府，积极帮助受害的亲属做好亲人教育转化工作，让他们悔悟自省，迷途知返，早日回到家里勤劳致富奔小康”。（张世福/文 牙生/图）
Here's the html file https://wormhole.app/axLbP#d8Ae7EO14jLvN5h-TF1l5A
Here's a screenshot
I also fixed the link.
Wow, so it appears that those blue-shirted people are just inmates of a regular prison. Oh well, I guess I don't actually have any photo of those camps.
I'm very invested in this and have spent a lot of time looking for photographic evidence. I can't find any. And it's a horrible search to be honest, there's a lot of harrowing photos online. But at this point I'm completely confident in believing the concentration camp story is a hoax.
Yeah I'm not that willing to hunt for those pictures online either due to the harrowing nature of those photos