In case someone is not quite sure why I'm taking a shit on Bild, here's a Google Translate of the actual article.
If it's not a whole lot of nothing like this article, it's just right-wing boomer fear porn.Ukraine war: What particularly tormented Scholz after his Putin call
The Kremlin dictator shocked the world in February 2022 when he attacked Ukraine and threatened to wipe the neighboring country off the map. The leaders of the western world tried to persuade the warmonger - including Chancellor Olaf Scholz (65, SPD).
Filmmaker and journalist Stephan Lamby (63) has now gained insights into the talks - they emerge from a conversation between Scholz and Macron, who exchanged views with Putin on March 4, 2022 - day 9 of the Ukraine war - after their respective telephone calls .
Lamby describes this conversation in his new book, Emergencies - Governing in Times of War. What Scholz Macron reported about Putin
Because Scholz cannot be put through immediately, Macron jokes with his advisors: If that doesn't work, then the "turn of the era" and the rearmament of the Bundeswehr are probably not going well either...
Then the chancellor answered: "Ah, hello Olaf, how are you? How was your discussion this morning?”
It doesn't get "better," says Scholz. "Something bothers me more than the talks: He (Putin) is not complaining about all the sanctions. I don't know if he did that in conversation with you. But he didn't even mention the sanctions.”
Macron replied: "Neither do I."
Scholz complained that Putin had only given presentations about his view of Ukraine: "He told me about all his ideas on how to find a compromise. He spoke of demilitarization, denazification.”
“And,” Scholz continued to report to Macron, “he asked me to have Crimea recognized as part of Russia. And the independence of these republics.” Conclusion of the Federal Chancellor: “Nothing new, to put it bluntly.”
However, Scholz tried to organize a summit meeting. "When I asked him whether there should be a meeting on Ukraine, sooner or later, with you, me, Zelenskyy and with him, Putin, he didn't completely refuse. But he mentioned two conditions. Firstly, there must be no reason for a ceasefire. Then he just talked about the three of us, you, me and him. Without Zelenskyy.”
Putin also expressed conspiracy theory ideas, Scholz also said: "Then he said that the Ukrainian delegation left for Poland because they want to speak to the President of the United States to get their instructions..." Scholz then laughed and sums it up: “More or less. That's it."
Macron replied: "Thanks, that was very similar to the conversation I had with him yesterday. I think he is now very determined to go to the end. The narrative and brutality of his televised message, as well as all the initiatives he has taken in talks with civil organizations in Russia over the past few hours, are very disturbing. To put it bluntly.”
It was clear to both of them that Putin had become radicalized and was unpredictable. What was previously known about Scholz's phone calls with Putin
So far, Scholz had revealed little about these phone calls with the Kremlin leader:
They were "always polite", he was with Putin via you. In February 2023, the chancellor denied that Putin had threatened Scholz with a rocket attack to BILD am SONNTAG. This was previously claimed by Britain's ex-Prime Minister Boris Johnson.
In December 2022, after another hour-long conversation with Putin, Scholz said he would continue to pick up the chancellor's phone when the Kremlin boss calls. Despite all the differences, you have to keep talking to the dictator, and Scholz also wants to check whether Putin has made any changes regarding Ukraine. Macron revealed much more from his Putin talks
French President Emmanuel Macron was different: he was on first name terms with Putin and had also published protocols from his phone calls with him in June 2022.
As a result, something more about Macron's phone calls with Putin had leaked out. Shortly before the war began, he said to the Russian President: "I would like you to first tell me how you assess the situation and, perhaps, in a fairly direct way, as we both do, tell me your intentions."
Above all, Macron wanted to persuade Putin to speak to US President Joe Biden again. Putin apparently agreed to such a talk in principle, but it never came to that.
Putin then choked off Macron by saying that he was going to the ice rink to play ice hockey. When Macron said he also wanted to do sport, namely boxing training, Putin is said to have said: "Think of Zelenskyj when you hit the punching bag."
Putin also spoke about the dropping of nuclear weapons on Hiroshima and told Macron what he learned from it: "You don't have to attack the big cities to win".The article doesn't exist in isolation. It's just another piece of evidence that the sanctions are not having the desired effect on Russia while being devastating to Europe. Russia managed to successfully realign its economy away from the west with domestic companies along with companies from countries like China and India filling the niche that opened up. Russia has done over $200 billion in trade with China alone in the past year. On the other hand, Eurozone is now in recession that's accelerating, and Germany is now becoming deindustrialized. This isn't right-wing boomer fear porn, this is the reality of the world we live in.
While I disagree with most of that or at least strongly doubt it, I'm not here to change your mind on that. I'm here to point out that the article you posted is hot garbage.
I'm not sure what you're claiming you strongly doubt given that this is all pretty much accepted in mainstream media now. Just a few examples:
- https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/03/20/e737-m20.html
- https://www.dw.com/en/germany-fears-a-wave-of-insolvencies/a-63059812
- https://english.news.cn/20220909/9bff8adb60474df1b20630d3f558e7a2/c.html
- https://www.economist.com/business/2022/09/11/germany-faces-a-looming-threat-of-deindustrialisation
- https://www.politico.eu/article/rust-belt-on-the-rhine-the-deindustrialization-of-germany/
- https://think.ing.com/snaps/eurozone-pmi-drops-again-in-june-confirming-weakness-in-economy/
- https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/decline-euro-zone-business-activity-accelerated-july-pmi-2023-08-03/
- https://www.cnbc.com/2023/08/23/european-pmis-for-august-show-steep-downturn-.html
- https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/euro-zone-services-slide-deepens-economic-gloom-pmi-2023-08-23/
And here's how things are going in Russia right now https://www.businessinsider.com/war-in-ukraine-russia-richer-millionaires-billionaires-uhnw-wealth-ubs-2023-8
Actually no. It is not "pretty much accepted in mainstream media now" that "sanctions are not having the desired effect on Russia while being devastating to Europe". When the Ruble is worth shit any more when compared to the Euro there might be a flaw in your perception. https://www.ecb.europa.eu/stats/policy_and_exchange_rates/euro_reference_exchange_rates/html/eurofxref-graph-rub.en.html
What amount Russia traded with China. How much of that is just crude oil that they have to sell for extremely low prices. If that's even significant at all, I have no clue. Economics are definitely way over my head. But given that there's a war in Europe right after years of pandemic, things seem to be fine. Not great, not terrible. https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/german-economy-stagnates-q2-after-winter-recession-2023-08-25/
And most of the time I wonder if you even read the articles you post.
And here’s how things are going in Russia right now
Russia's wealth gains came despite its invasion of Ukraine in February, which has led to the West imposing sanctions on the Kremlin that led to its economy shrinking and triggered a slump for Moscow-listed stocks.
UBS acknowledges that "wealth trends in Russia are difficult to determine at this time," but did highlight it as one of a handful of countries that had gotten richer in 2022.
Rising oil prices could be one factor behind the wealth increase, with exports of the commodity a key economic engine for Russia. The cost of a barrel of benchmark Urals crude jumped by about $7 last year, data from Refinitiv indicated./edit
https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/ruble-decline-growing-budget-deficit-funding-ukraine-war-by-sergei-guriev-2023-08
https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/gdp-growth
https://tradingeconomics.com/russia/gdp-growthActually no. It is not “pretty much accepted in mainstream media now” that “sanctions are not having the desired effect on Russia while being devastating to Europe”. When the Ruble is worth shit any more when compared to the Euro there might be a flaw in your perception. https://www.ecb.europa.eu/stats/policy_and_exchange_rates/euro_reference_exchange_rates/html/eurofxref-graph-rub.en.html
The fact that you think this is meaningful is actually a flaw in your perception since Russia doesn't do pretty much any direct trade with the west at this point. Furthermore, this makes Russian exports cheap on the international market which helps the government balance the budget domestically since the conversion rate is in their favor. It helps to understand how basic economics work.
What amount Russia traded with China. How much of that is just crude oil that they have to sell for extremely low prices.
Bilateral trade with China is huge and it's absolutely not just energy trade. For example, Russia has become number one export destination for Chinese car manufacturers https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202307/1294155.shtml
Russia is also not exporting its energy at extremely low prices https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/russian-oil-crosses-g7s-price-cap-us-eyes-soft-enforcement-2023-07-27/
And most of the time I wonder if you even read the articles you post.
Not sure what the gotcha there you think is exactly. Every available indicator shows that Russian economy is growing right now. The quote from the article doesn't contradict this, it just coaches it in language that makes people like you feel better.
As you said though, it's pretty clear that you live in a different reality and there's nothing I can say to you that would convince you of anything. So, just wait and see how things develop going forward and let me know when you feel ready to engage with the real world.
So you're sticking with the narrative that everything is fine in Russia while The West(TM) is already in shambles? Russia's oligarchs (definitely not the people of russia) can get richer while being at war and being heavily sanctioned. And you don't feel the need to question that? You need to actively cheer them on?
Russia doesn’t do pretty much any direct trade with the west at this point
This is complete bullshit.
I think our concept of reality might not even be comparable.
It's not my narrative, it's what pretty much all the media is reporting. Russian economy is growing, Russia has found trade replacements for the trade it did with the west, and inflation in Russia is around 6% now. There are also tons of videos of people travelling to Russia, so you can see what life there is like. There is zero evidence to suggest that Russia is having any serious economic problems or that regular people in Russia are negatively impacted right now.
What you should be questioning is your own overinflated view of the relevance of the west globally. The only countries doing the sanctioning are the western ones, while the rest of the world accounting for 80% of human population is not.
On the other hand, there is a ton of evidence that the opposite is happening in Europe. All the economic indicators are pointing to rising cost of living, reduced economic activity, and a recession. This is also translating into increased public discontent across Europe. We're seeing right wing parties gain rapid popularity across Europe as well as a result. And it's happening precisely because the "left" in Europe aligned with the warmongering liberal mainstream.
I think our concept of reality might not even be comparable.
I mean that's pretty obvious. Thing about reality though is that it has a way of bursting through the narrative people build up for themselves. If you don't feel the impact of what the west has done to itself yet, you will soon.
dude tried to outwit the master and got it handed to him, never change Yogthos
You realize that in the article you sent me it said that the Russian economy is shrinking, right? The only thing they export is petroleum products, coal and iron while they import everything else basically. https://oec.world/en/profile/country/rus
The thing you might forget is we don't export population, we export actual manufactured goods, medicine, advanced electronics, aviation equipment, automotive, airbag sensors etc.
I'd argue the problems The West (TM) is facing are mostly due to late stage capitalism rather than the sanctions against Russia. We can get our dinosaur products elsewhere.
I'm looking forward to what the future might bring for all of us. Don't forget we live on the same planet. And keep an open mind.
the problems The West (TM) is facing are mostly due to late stage capitalism rather than sanctions against Russia
Edit for effortpost: the fact that late stage capitalism and impotent sanctions coincide is no coincidence. I find LSC a poorly defined term, considering that imperialism seems NOT be considered in the term but only internal indications, but I digress. These two developments, one of corruption from capital and crises developing and the other of sanctions having no benefit and only seeing blowback, are dialectically intertwined. Sanctions could work if western imperialism hadn't developed to an extent that all necessary labour can be done outside of the core for cheaper. But the efforts to maintain the standards of living and fight external pressure are resulting from the same process and the failures are inseparable also
Thanks for the edit.
I'd be willing to say:
mostly due tolate stagecapitalismBut I'm not sold on the imperialism aspect when both parties are doing it. Although I'd distinguish if they're doing it with the pen or with the sword. It'd be better without, but I sure do prefer the pen.
Meh, I disagree but this is too tangential from the rest of the thread for me to work too hard in a response. Not sure what you're even arguing tbh, except that peaceful imperialism is different and America does that. I think all facts point to that being absolutely false, even if the violence is done quietly and in a normalized fashion. I also just disagree that Russia here is Imperialist with a big "I" (different from having a empire, which is confusing often). I also have no idea what this has to do with whether sanctions are succeeding or failing or not. My point is only that the failure of the sanctions and the results of capitalism are from the identical source which is capitalism and the logic of that extended through imperialism to international relations
You realize that in the article you sent me it said that the Russian economy is shrinking, right?
You realize that IMF and pretty much everyone else now says that it's growing, but I guess you just want to cling to your narrative by cherry picking a paragraph from an article that fits into what you believe.
And Russia is primarily a commodities exporter, however it does export a significant amount of manufactured goods as well https://tradingeconomics.com/russia/exports
What's more though is that domestic factory activity in Russia is now growing which is the opposite of what's happening in Germany https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/russian-factory-activity-expands-april-export-orders-pick-up-2023-05-02/
The thing you might forget is we don’t export population, we export actual manufactured goods, medicine, advanced electronics, aviation equipment, automotive, airbag sensors etc.
Yeah, and cheap energy from Russia was the reason Germany was able to produce these things competitively. Now, input costs for German manufacturing are surging leading to deindustrialization as companies move operations to cheaper energy markets. This is how capitalism works.
I’d argue the problems The West ™ is facing are mostly due to late stage capitalism rather than the sanctions against Russia. We can get our dinosaur products elsewhere.
Late stage capitalism is obviously the underlying reason why the west as a whole is failing. However, having a significant increase in energy costs is clearly a catalyst for the current disaster that Europe is experiencing. These things are in no way mutually exclusive. The economy was structured around cheap energy and doing a lot of trade with Russia and China. Now all of a sudden cheap energy from Russia is gone, and US is leaning on Europe to decouple from China. This is a huge economic readjustment that's happening rapidly. This is leading to companies closing down, jobs being lost, living expenses going up, and so on.
I’m looking forward to what the future might bring for all of us. Don’t forget we live on the same planet. And keep an open mind.
We do live on the same planet, and that's precisely why the west needs to start treating the rest of humanity on equal terms instead of trying to dominate the world. Western policies are directly responsible for the climate catastrophe, and western lifestyle continues to be one of the primary drivers of global emissions. Instead of focusing on this global disaster that affects us all, the west decided to fight a proxy war with Russia, and US is increasingly trying to provoke a conflict with China now. People living in the west really need to do some self reflection.
Russian general populace seems to be doing pretty well. Their living standards have held steady or improved radically since the 90s, and Western sanctions have done little to nothing to change that; they have been preparing for and subject to Western economic warfare for years, and have built relations outside the West to survive and prosper. Their economics only look grim when Western think tanks use metrics they invented to measure it. Only the West says Russia is suffering and only in the minds of the Westerner is it so.
European general populace, on the other hand, is only just beginning to feel the sting of being on the wrong side. Their conditions will deteriorate until they overthrow their compradores and break free from the US.
Yes, right now there are two wildly different narratives, two mutually exclusive realities. One is attested to by countries and peoples across the entire world. One is attested to by a small collection of cruel empires that have committed almost all wars and genocides of the modern era and who have illustrated their only truly honed skill is the art of deceit. I place my trust in the former group, if you are unconvinced I invite you to sit back and watch as Russia continues to hold firm while the West continues to rapidly lose colonies, tradinf partners, vassals, allies, living standards, and its sanity.
all bourgeois media is almost entirely garbage, you have to sift through the propagandistic rhetoric to extract the potential useful parts
So maybe we should not post editorialized headlines from bad articles in a language we don't speak from the worst rag in the lands.
Otherwise people might not notice that the lead headline (in German) "What particularly tormented Scholz" does not get answered in this article. They might not consider that Scholz is "tormented" just because Bild doesn't like him
that's fair enough, particularly the lack of an official English translation
"Something bothers me more than the talks: He (Putin) is not complaining about all the sanctions. I don’t know if he did that in conversation with you. But he didn’t even mention the sanctions.”
This is from the translation that you posted ^ "what particularly tormented scholz" is that putin didn't complain about the sanctions. It is answered in the article. Is the headline sensationalized? yes. But thats typical journalism for you if you stop posting sensationalized headlines there won't be any news on lemmy.
Is being bothered the same as being tormented? Breaking news: Scholz visably close to tears multiple times
Ziemlich irrelevant. Fakt ist, dass Kanzler Scholz im Regierungsboulevardblatt gejammert hat, dass die Sanktionen gegen Russland für Europa Selbstmord waren, Russland sich hingegen erfolgreich neu aufgestellt hat.
Regierungsboulevardblatt
Ist der Springer Verlag seit neusten Teil der öffentlich rechtlichen Medien?
gejammert hat, dass die Sanktionen gegen Russland für Europa Selbstmord waren, Russland sich hingegen erfolgreich neu aufgestellt hat
Nicht wirklich. Er hat festgestellt dass Putin die Sanktionen nicht erwähnt hat. That's it. Bei dem ganzen zwischen den Zeilen lesen muss man aufpassen dass Bild.de nicht zur Belletristik wird
