I have a limited understanding of theory, so take that into consideration. I have recently been researching geopolitics and world systems theory and trying to apply it to political economies. From my understanding, communism is achievable in simple societies, but difficult in complex societies. Complex societies tend to foster social hierarchies and authoritarianism due to their complexity. If anyone can give me their opinions I would appreciate it. Whether it’s an area for further study or someone else’s research.
Communism is an extrapolation of capitalism from feudalism. To summarize, Marx saw how the nature of class struggle led to the overthrow of the nobility leading to the advent of capitalism, and extrapolated how class struggle will lead to the overthrow of the bourgeoisie leading to the advent of communism. (The process of getting there is through socialism)
It is only within complex societies where there is a distinct hierarchy, that class struggle is intensified, and there can be a communist revolution.
First we need to make clear what you mean by social hierarchy. Social hierarchy manifests in different ways, the most prominent of which is class, as currently defined by their relationship to the means of the production. There are other aspects (which we call intersectionalities) which don’t necessarily manifest in a hierarchical sense like race, gender, ethnicity, religion, etc. which will become more prevalent once class is eliminated, for sure. (More on this in a bit)
Now recall earlier where I mentioned that communism is an extrapolation of capitalism from feudalism. During the transition to capitalism, the capitalists eliminated the nobility class, by seizing state power. Extrapolating from that, the transition to communism (into socialism) will seek to eliminate the capitalist class by seizing state power. (Which is easier said than done because this is a multiplayer game and you have to defend against imperialists.)
Once we eliminate the capitalist class, what is left? Only the proletariat, as well as intersectionalities and prejudices left over from capitalism and imperialism that we must acknowledge and resolve.
And only once those are resolved, can we reach communism.
So the answer to your question is “bit by bit, starting with the capitalist class.”
The marxist analysis of history is called historical materialism (Stalin has THE book on this), it boils down to the "history of hitherto society is the history of the development of the means of production".
A basic example: In primitive societies, everyone had to work to survive, 10 hunters provided the food for 10 people. As the tools of hunting evolved (the bow being the paradigm shifter) a single hunter could now provide for 10 people, freeing up those people to do other work, hence making the old structure of society completely obsolete.
This is how systems die and get replaced. At one point capitalism replaced feudalism (read theory), eventually communism will replace capitalism it is inevitable tho it doesn't mean that the old system will go down peacefully as they have never gone peacefully.
If you ask me, the capitalist class became obsolete as the production of tools used for education and distribution (books and especially computers and the internet) became sufficiently capable. We just haven't replaced it yet.
If you ask me, the capitalist class became obsolete as the production of tools used for education and distribution (books and especially computers and the internet) became sufficiently capable. We just haven't replaced it yet.
That is an interesting idea to think on. When the proletariat have the means to educate themselves, the bourgeoisie becomes irrelevant. It seems AI and advancements in 3d printing will accelerate this.
Especially since so many of these advancements will now be reduced to fill a profit motive, when they could be used to better wider society in a far better fashion.
communism wasn't achievable in simple societies, primitive communism was, as the historical epoch changed, the modes of production changed, there felt a need for a system that could make better use of the modes of production as thought of by the people in that historical context. the modes of production and historical epoch changed in a similar way, from slavery to feudal, semi-feudal colonies to capitalism. the historical transformation occurs during a period where contradictions within the system has reached to such an extent that it becomes impossible for the system to self-sustain.
I’m gonna read this 3 more times, and maybe I’ll understand it. Okay, I think I understand. The modes of production determine the system employed dependent on historical context. So the mode of production can change because the current system (capitalism) is unsustainable. I’m sure Socialism is inevitable, but still not sure that true communism will follow. Maybe it’s a failure of my imagination and education, that given enough time communism will be inevitable too.
socialism is the lower stage of communism with "true communism" being the final stage. its either communism or extinction, because when the lower stage of communism is achieved, it is basically doomed for the world as it is right now, given climate change disasters at its peak, to revert back to capitalist mode of production
Definitely. Socialism is the future. My question is whether that can eventually transition to true communism? Or whether it would be difficult to implement on such a large scale (worldwide). China seems best equipped to shepherd this. But a world wide change is a lot to ask.
I go through revolutionary pessimism too, from time to time. China and Cuba who have maintained their status as heading towards socialism for this long despite sanctions and pressures from US show that it is not impossible. The leftist movement is getting class consciousness and growing. It is not just about the so called actually existing socialist states, or about the few African military juntas leading the country towards the path of Thomas Sankara, its about the contradictions within imperialism that make it more and more unstable for it to maintain itself. Imperialist contradictions will, sooner or later, be taken advantage of by the proletariat to guide the revolution. now the question of whether it can be transitioned to communism cannot be answered because of imperial oppression that has fought back against every attempt. I won't let that affect my spirit. Lenin was depressed in February-ish of 1917, thinking of whether he can actually bring about a change. In October, the second revolution of the year happened. He famously said, "there are decades where nothing happens, there are weeks where decades happen". its not a matter of if it will happen, its a matter of when.
I also am pretty limited regarding theory, but I do remember seeing an online video of a teacher saying how, at the end of his life, Marx was studying primitive forms of society and their complexity.
So I do have to question you in what do you mean by complex societies, because from what I understand ours is a extremely simple one, you are either a worker or a capitalist, there are in betweens but there isn't any other class you can be part of in capitalism.
I mean complex in terms of specialization of production. Like technology. Most people don’t know how their food gets to their table, or how to repair a combustion engine. I’m interested in how that would be maintained in a communist environment. I know the Soviets became industrialized and technologically advanced, but that was with the help of the state. With no state under stateless communism, would technological advances slow or be sporadic? It just seems that the current system of complexity might suffer in a transition. This is all academic and probably irrelevant due to climate crisis, but it’s interesting for me to contemplate.
Full easy to follow instructions to produce or repair all products and automated manufacturing facilities with automated delivery are theoretically possible. One can also have community repair centers to easily distribute repair tools to an as needed basis.
I have a limited understanding of theory, so take that into consideration. I have recently been researching geopolitics and world systems theory and trying to apply it to political economies. From my understanding, communism is achievable in simple societies, but difficult in complex societies. Complex societies tend to foster social hierarchies and authoritarianism due to their complexity. If anyone can give me their opinions I would appreciate it. Whether it’s an area for further study or someone else’s research.
Communism is an extrapolation of capitalism from feudalism. To summarize, Marx saw how the nature of class struggle led to the overthrow of the nobility leading to the advent of capitalism, and extrapolated how class struggle will lead to the overthrow of the bourgeoisie leading to the advent of communism. (The process of getting there is through socialism)
It is only within complex societies where there is a distinct hierarchy, that class struggle is intensified, and there can be a communist revolution.
Would social hierarchies develop over time? How would that be prevented?
First we need to make clear what you mean by social hierarchy. Social hierarchy manifests in different ways, the most prominent of which is class, as currently defined by their relationship to the means of the production. There are other aspects (which we call intersectionalities) which don’t necessarily manifest in a hierarchical sense like race, gender, ethnicity, religion, etc. which will become more prevalent once class is eliminated, for sure. (More on this in a bit)
Now recall earlier where I mentioned that communism is an extrapolation of capitalism from feudalism. During the transition to capitalism, the capitalists eliminated the nobility class, by seizing state power. Extrapolating from that, the transition to communism (into socialism) will seek to eliminate the capitalist class by seizing state power. (Which is easier said than done because this is a multiplayer game and you have to defend against imperialists.)
Once we eliminate the capitalist class, what is left? Only the proletariat, as well as intersectionalities and prejudices left over from capitalism and imperialism that we must acknowledge and resolve.
And only once those are resolved, can we reach communism.
So the answer to your question is “bit by bit, starting with the capitalist class.”
Got it. It’s good to see that others see the concept as achievable.
Well of course. Because the elimination of hierarchies, and the synthesis of viewpoints has been achieved multiple times already.
The marxist analysis of history is called historical materialism (Stalin has THE book on this), it boils down to the "history of hitherto society is the history of the development of the means of production".
A basic example: In primitive societies, everyone had to work to survive, 10 hunters provided the food for 10 people. As the tools of hunting evolved (the bow being the paradigm shifter) a single hunter could now provide for 10 people, freeing up those people to do other work, hence making the old structure of society completely obsolete.
This is how systems die and get replaced. At one point capitalism replaced feudalism (read theory), eventually communism will replace capitalism it is inevitable tho it doesn't mean that the old system will go down peacefully as they have never gone peacefully.
If you ask me, the capitalist class became obsolete as the production of tools used for education and distribution (books and especially computers and the internet) became sufficiently capable. We just haven't replaced it yet.
That is an interesting idea to think on. When the proletariat have the means to educate themselves, the bourgeoisie becomes irrelevant. It seems AI and advancements in 3d printing will accelerate this.
Especially since so many of these advancements will now be reduced to fill a profit motive, when they could be used to better wider society in a far better fashion.
Removed by mod
Sometimes I can’t tell if downvotes here are loyal libs and confused comrades
Sometimes they’re just misclicks by comrades that didn’t intend to downvote but that doesn’t happen very often
Thanks. That gives me a path to research.
communism wasn't achievable in simple societies, primitive communism was, as the historical epoch changed, the modes of production changed, there felt a need for a system that could make better use of the modes of production as thought of by the people in that historical context. the modes of production and historical epoch changed in a similar way, from slavery to feudal, semi-feudal colonies to capitalism. the historical transformation occurs during a period where contradictions within the system has reached to such an extent that it becomes impossible for the system to self-sustain.
I’m gonna read this 3 more times, and maybe I’ll understand it. Okay, I think I understand. The modes of production determine the system employed dependent on historical context. So the mode of production can change because the current system (capitalism) is unsustainable. I’m sure Socialism is inevitable, but still not sure that true communism will follow. Maybe it’s a failure of my imagination and education, that given enough time communism will be inevitable too.
socialism is the lower stage of communism with "true communism" being the final stage. its either communism or extinction, because when the lower stage of communism is achieved, it is basically doomed for the world as it is right now, given climate change disasters at its peak, to revert back to capitalist mode of production
Definitely. Socialism is the future. My question is whether that can eventually transition to true communism? Or whether it would be difficult to implement on such a large scale (worldwide). China seems best equipped to shepherd this. But a world wide change is a lot to ask.
I go through revolutionary pessimism too, from time to time. China and Cuba who have maintained their status as heading towards socialism for this long despite sanctions and pressures from US show that it is not impossible. The leftist movement is getting class consciousness and growing. It is not just about the so called actually existing socialist states, or about the few African military juntas leading the country towards the path of Thomas Sankara, its about the contradictions within imperialism that make it more and more unstable for it to maintain itself. Imperialist contradictions will, sooner or later, be taken advantage of by the proletariat to guide the revolution. now the question of whether it can be transitioned to communism cannot be answered because of imperial oppression that has fought back against every attempt. I won't let that affect my spirit. Lenin was depressed in February-ish of 1917, thinking of whether he can actually bring about a change. In October, the second revolution of the year happened. He famously said, "there are decades where nothing happens, there are weeks where decades happen". its not a matter of if it will happen, its a matter of when.
I also am pretty limited regarding theory, but I do remember seeing an online video of a teacher saying how, at the end of his life, Marx was studying primitive forms of society and their complexity.
So I do have to question you in what do you mean by complex societies, because from what I understand ours is a extremely simple one, you are either a worker or a capitalist, there are in betweens but there isn't any other class you can be part of in capitalism.
I mean complex in terms of specialization of production. Like technology. Most people don’t know how their food gets to their table, or how to repair a combustion engine. I’m interested in how that would be maintained in a communist environment. I know the Soviets became industrialized and technologically advanced, but that was with the help of the state. With no state under stateless communism, would technological advances slow or be sporadic? It just seems that the current system of complexity might suffer in a transition. This is all academic and probably irrelevant due to climate crisis, but it’s interesting for me to contemplate.
Full easy to follow instructions to produce or repair all products and automated manufacturing facilities with automated delivery are theoretically possible. One can also have community repair centers to easily distribute repair tools to an as needed basis.