Say what we will about West. But it's still gonna be fun to watch him confront these people with their own bullshit.
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Mainly that he's not a Marxist, a rad-lib at best. Gives words which are cheap to anti-capitalism but doesn't give solidarity to targets of US imperialist attack unless convenient and costless (Cuba and Palestine at this point, he's in the Russia-bad camp, against China, etc).
I admit he could be amusing but I hope no one here falls for him as anything but window dressing himself on the US political system, the uh far left end of what is permissible in the mainstream which isn't that left at all as I mentioned, no actually risky solidarity (China, DPRK, Russia), no real solutions beyond platitudes about loving your neighbor and brother this, sister that preacher bullshit speaking. Oh he desires for change and probably wishes he could put together an MLK like coalition but doesn't realize as liberals do not that if the USSR hadn't been there banging on about the civil rights and humiliating the US in front of non-aligned states they would have killed MLK a lot sooner and a lot of his followers too rather than compromising for face.
There are many levels of traps and false paths in the US system designed to capture people and prevent them from reaching Marxism. We in no way have to hand it to anyone who is not either a principled Marxist or with us in a principled anti-imperialist stance that they maintain at great cost. He is neither, never has been. Celebrated the fall of the USSR, etc.
Oh I agree. Cornel v. Bernie I'm viewing on the same level of Trump v. DeSantis. Ultimately another flavor of liberal infighting.
The biggest positive effect Cornel West can have by running is by continuing to weaken the ideological grip Democrats have over workers and other progressive-minded Americans. Plenty of us before studying Marxism started as Bernie supporters, so in that way his run does have the same potential to serve as a gateway to leftist politics.
He may also not agree with China's politics but he's anti-war and critical of NATO. Of any candidate in the mainstream public arena he's obviously the most desirable for the Global South.
He may also not agree with China’s politics but he’s anti-war and critical of NATO.
And understatement and an overstatement IMO.
He said the fall of the USSR was a good thing (praised fucking Reagan). Is against China, not critical of certain politics or policies, he's anti-communist, muh persecution of religious people atrocity nonsense. Muh nonsense about muh authority, etc, etc.
He's critical of NATO in the same way some honest Marxists are critical of AES states while still supporting them. He to my knowledge says Russia is the aggressor (repeating the NATO line is not being nearly critical enough, it's a lack of thinking) in the Ukraine situation, does a both-sides cowardly condemnation and the usual coward's prayer for peace without assigning blame. Neither Washington nor Moscow was a CIA line we must recall.
Compared to like Code-Pink who afaik correctly identify US aggression as being responsible for the Ukraine war, blame the US, and aren't critical of NATO so much as denouncing its existence.
Being anti-war is meaningless, he's not going to win, or take and exercise power. So the only point is his platform, if his platform is vulgar, liberal, non-materialist, doesn't show real solidarity (not meaningless, vague "war bad" which is dropped at moment's notice for a situation like Ukraine or a Taiwan incursion), then what worthwhile message is he spreading?
And yeah maybe he could do some of what Bernie did. I'm just not so sure that wasn't a fairly special moment coming off Obama's nonsense and disillusionment over his false promises, the rise of the alt-right and so many things just seeming wrong to young people who'd been promised Obama would change things and we would never go back to the Bush years and the country was moving forward. Thing is the Democratic party openly sabotaged Bernie so that really caused a lot of people to question things further, they're just plain not going to platform Cornel, maybe one wacky debate with low tier candidates by the media where he gets a few free quips and is mostly ignored by the moderators so I'm not sure the radicalizing potential is there the same as Bernie who was thrown under the bus not once but twice in a row visibly and who had that massive platform on the debate stage with Hillary Clinton. And there was a real feeling "Bernie could have won" vs Trump who did actually win whereas If Biden wins again you won't have that and if Trump wins I don't think you'll have that either. The type of people who Cornel attracts are mostly Democracy Now type rad-libs, green party libs, CIA-synthetic left types who are already safely firewalled from moving onto Marxism and just kind of caught being shepherded around by third party hopes and wasting their lives and efforts organizing around electoralism and a few meaningless protests a year (half of which align with CIA objectives or are not objectionable anyways to them).
Because lets face it. For every former Bernie person (I was one) who became a Marxist by 2020 or 2021 there are probably 10 who became anti-communist, US state dept spouting anarchists.
Maybe I'm being a pessimist, I just think a lot of stars aligned for what happened with Bernie in a perfect storm of shock, rising disillusionment, and blatant bias and manipulation by the media. I think most of the liberals have accepted what's happening, are clinging to Biden and a return to normalcy, institutions, norms, blah, blah, blah. It's a coping mechanism born of trauma and desperation and they've fully bought the Russia-gate myth and fully believe they have to circle the wagons, prioritize saving the institutions above all else. They've been successfully terrorized against the prospect of dramatic change via Trump and fearmongering against him and insinuations anyone pushing for anything too radical is a Russian provocateur and threat to our democracy. And that is intentional, this has been very carefully crafted as the CIA and bourgeoisie are freaked out by the happenings of Bernie and Trump.
I think they might even actually throw Trump in prison and keep him there and the Republican party will rail against it but secretly be relieved. Because they didn't want Bernie, they didn't want Trump, they want to back to Bushes, Biden's, and so on. Usual, reliable suspects who implement reactionary terror at home, reactionary terror abroad but do so with dignity, are seen as reliable, stable, predictable, respecters of institutions and norms, a steady rock for allies (vassals) to moor themselves to.
While all of that is true, it still seems to me as an outside observer that if you're gonna vote for anyone in US presidential elections then right now West is probably the least objectionable candidate. At the very least voting third party is a blow against the corporate duopoly.
However the litmus test for him will be if he ends up endorsing or telling you to vote for the Democrat candidate after he drops out. If he does then he is no better than Bernie and all his rhetoric about the Democrats being irredeemable was not serious.
So i say wait and see what happens, will he remain principled, at least against the uniparty, or will he cave.
Honestly I'm expecting him to sheepdog for the DNC too at this point. Ironically, it was Sanders himself who taught me to never trust the fiery invective of a candidate before the nominees have been pulled.
I suppose the fact he is running as a Green rather than a Dem makes that a little less likely. I could easily be wrong, but I don't think a Green (at least in recent memory) has turned into a Democrat cheerleader. Whereas Sanders was running as a dem and just served to try to funnel a few more left-leaning votes back into the far-right.
Yeah that's the real problem with these types. People say well they might further the conversation and maybe, but all that progress is thrown out the window and you get regression in fact the moment that candidate sheepdogs and says the election is the most important or our lives, we all must hold our noses and vote for Biden and the Dems who are the lesser evil. Because that keeps people in the paradigm, they vote him this time and then whoever the next bozo is next time and every time there's a new sheepdog to herd these people out to pasture to sate their desires for the aesthetic of radicalism before dutifully herding them back into the electoral system and hopes for incremental change someday.
She's alright last I checked which admittedly was last major election. I admit I haven't looked in recent years that deeply into all her positions which I suppose I would if I planned on stanning her.
Fair observations. What does "anti-war" mean if there's no potential to actually affect policy?
That being said, even though he is an anticommunist, calling Russia a "colonizing" force, etc. He still is on record saying that NATO provoked Russia and has openly called for an end to NATO. There is value in seizing that criticism back from the right wing who has co-opted it and confronting Democrats from the left. How much potential though, we'll see. I agree that the Bernie phenomenon was a perfect storm and that there are different circumstances now. Like you said, it's easier for them to deplatform West whereas with Bernie the Democrats still had to make things appear "fair."
Overall I'm suspicious of West, as we all should be.
are probably 10 who became anti-communist, US state dept spouting anarchists.
I think most dropped out and politically disengaged.
The only reason the Amerinazis continue to allow him to make noises is so the
leftlibs stick with him and his ridiculous fantasy to "change the system from within". The system works exactly as intended and the only way to endcapitalismfascism is to throw it into the dustbin of history.Literally everything Sanders advocates for is what Lenin denounced in state and rev, he's basically the modern incarnation of Bernstein.
Yes, this piece of shit was never on our side, just a stooge, not unlike Chomsky or other prominent "leftists" in the western elite.
I hate Bernie so much. Such a scumbag. Advocated for the destruction of Yugoslavia and his constant grift of pretending to give a shit about the poor tricks a lot of people. More than that I'm sick of those who suck off this guy like he's some hero of the proletariat when he's nothing more than an opportunistic con artist. I'm so sick of the lesser evilism nonsense people try and use to justify this crap. Voting for lesser evil is all the left has done for fucking ever now and all its gotten us is a neoliberal hellscape. The democrats will never need to give the left anything because the left is spineless and gives its power away freely. If you're a guaranteed voting bloc your demands will never be even considered because they aren't real demands, they are simply polite requests. Policy is instead dictated by those who will jump ship if a better opportunity presents itself because they are the ones who may swing the other way.
I sympathize with your position here, but I would add that some observable benefit has been had in his orbit. Using myself as an example, some of the grassroots energy and political education that came from people who supported his campaign, or who saw some kind of value in it even if they thought it was a lost cause, helped lead me to the views I have now. We shouldn't underestimate the value of seizing upon working class movements to educate, provided it's not faux working class reactionary stuff. And in saying this, we don't have to give Bernie himself credit for it, of course. My point is just that we shouldn't let the disgust with the situation deprive us of leveraging opportunities to fight against the indoctrination. This next election may contain such opportunities too, where we'll encounter people who stubbornly want to do "fix it from within," but may be easier to get through to when combining the knowledge we can present with certain campaign messaging that is getting them to think about things they'd otherwise have ignored.
He was a very potent and necessary part of the radicalization pipeline. I know he kickstarted my radicalization in 2016. But we will have to drag the libs kicking and screaming past him.
Social democrats being the moderate wing of Fascism again? Damn, if only someone could have predicted this
Yes, prevent people from voting whoever they want, making this threat since 2016, and not gaining voters' trust by minimally improving their material conditions, a great example of democracy
This example of democracy is so good that we feel the need to spread it to other countries
even if their citizens strongly oppose iteven if their citizens strongly oppose itEspecially if their citizens strongly oppose it!
A commenter on lemmy.ml provided this great link about rigging of 2016 primaries:
https://observer.com/2017/05/dnc-lawsuit-presidential-primaries-bernie-sanders-supporters/
I think we're trapped in a time loop. Wake me up when the coup happens.
At this point I think the funniest thing would be for Biden to pass naturally after winning 2024 and then for the military to coup Kamala and install Bernard as he tells everyone to vote for Kamala post coup.
that or theres a military coup led by the bush family
Look at the comments under the lemmy crosspost.
Pure porky moment
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At a certain point he's doing more harm than good. Especially with his "american democracy is in danger" warnings. American democracy does not exist for the majority of people in this country, and that should be what he's promoting if if wants to help
