I'm going to swing in and suggest reading/glancing over the Original Adrien Zenz report. Zenz is a fellow at the heritage fund and part of the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation. Both notorious right-wing propaganda mills.
Nearly every article you have seen has either cited the original Zenz report, or a thinktank that cites said report. Often times if you dig into the funding schemes of those think tanks, you'll learn about all sorts of organizations explicitly tied to defense organizations. I saw one that was an Australian defense org funded by the US DoD.
Anyway, the original report focused on a possible cultural genocide. What this is referring to is the return of 1-2 child policies in China. Previously, these policies excluded most ethnic minorities within China, including the Uyghurs. With this new policy, this group would now be included in the 1-2 child restrictions.
Zenz extrapolated a slowed growth in Uyghur population, not reduction, or stall, but slowed. He concluded that these policies would result in a "Cultural Genocide", meaning an attempt to destroy the culture of the group, not the group itself. This does not make sense, as these were not hard targeted policies, but sweeping across the population.
The reeducation camps were something totally distinct from this report. Keep in mind that news media was using the report in order to call the reeducation camps essentially concentration camps.
Something that is often left out of the conversation is that Xinjiang has been host to many Muslim extremist terrorist attacks. The solutions that China chose may not have been the best, but if we're being honest with ourselves, are no worse than the immigrant camps at the US boarder. Except those are often privatized, profit centered, and have a constant stream of stories about neglect, abuse, and even forced sterilization. Most of the camps in Xinjiang have since been closed, as reported by AP.
I'm sorry I'm not providing sources here, I don't have my notes app set up on my current machine. below I'm going to give prompts to help you search.
Nearly any article will link to the zenz report if you follow citations well enough.
AP reported on the camps being closed.
In the US, Migrants were given hysterectomies without being told prior to the proceedure, often times they came to the doctor for other ails.
The burden of proof is on those who make accusations, it is not the responsibility of others to convince you of what isn't happening. Further, you may have heard the adage that an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence, of which there is none and can therefore be dismissed. Even further, when we look at who stands to gain from such a narrative despite the lack of evidence, it follows that US imperial power and Sinophobia driven clickbait news corporations stand to gain monetary and political standing by publishing articles like this. This is the same tactic as the Holodomor myth (which is literally an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory made by nazi propagandists and pushed by nazi lover William Randolph Hurst)
A convenience store cashier chatted idly about declining sales – then was visited by the shadowy men tailing us. When we dropped by again, she didn’t say a word, instead making a zipping motion across her mouth, pushing past us and running out of the store.
Bruh, she got invited to lake Lao Gai for talking about sales slowing down.
“Arabic is not the only language that compiles Allah’s classics,” the lesson said. “To learn Chinese is our responsibility and obligation, because we are all Chinese.”
Uhhhh
In one village we stop in, an elderly Uyghur man in a square skullcap answers just one question – “We don’t have the coronavirus here, everything is good” – before a local Han Chinese cadre demands to know what we are doing. He tells the villagers in Uyghur, “If he asks you anything, just say you don’t know anything.”
There is no COVID in Ba Sing Se lol. Not gonna lie, I think Chinese propaganda picks some strange hills to die on, COVID is everywhere, but whatever, it's not genocide.
At one point, I was tailed by a convoy of a dozen cars, an eerie procession through the silent streets of Aksu at 4 in the morning. Anytime I tried to chat with someone, the minders would draw in close, straining to hear every word.
Well, I'm sure they got the real story, or else.
Within Xinjiang, Han Chinese and Uyghurs live side by side, an unspoken but palpable gulf between them. In the suburbs of Kashgar, a Han woman at a tailor shop tells my colleague that most Uyghurs weren’t allowed to go far from their homes. “Isn’t that so? You can’t leave this shop?” the woman said to a Uyghur seamstress.
I'm thinking "you can't leave this shop" is probably an inelegance of translation, and she likely means that the seamstress can't leave the vicinity of the shop. Still, that's uh... Difficult to fathom being applied to "most" of an ethnic population.
Yes, the AP article talks about how the prison camps were closed and stuff, that's all well and good. The minders didn't show them any mass graves, so I suppose that in that regard, there is indeed evidence missing to support genocide. That said, it reminds me a lot of how the US and Canada dealt with native populations, minus the physical relocation. Had they had the same technological capacity as modern China, it seems quite likely to me that Andrew Jackson would have been equally as happy, uh, re-educating the first nations in the way we've seen here. I have limited time to respond, so I'll get to the other articles as I can, but I wonder about choosing this article to defend your position. This reads to me like they've quite finished with their most extreme measures, which, given the state of the present, must have been quite impressive. I always admired the work of the early communist party in fighting for the rights and freedoms of black people in the reconstruction period, it's disappointing to see Saturday morning cartoon bad guy behavior.
I mentioned that it doesn't talk about killings, but I also point out that the reporter's entire visit was tightly minded and regulated by party officials. I don't imagine that they were in a special hurry to show them so much as a carton of spoiled milk.
But you're still moving the goal posts. They didn't post the AP article because it's a credible source on events in Xinjiang (it isn't). They posted it to demonstrate that even sources extremely biased against China weren't going as far as making accusations of killings.
Yeah, okay, fair enough. I don't have the time or will to commit to digging into resources to support my counter claim, and I'll concede that I'm goalposting.
As to the other accusations about Xinjiang, that's a more complicated discussion. I don't think anybody is claiming that nothing dodgy was happening at all there, there was clearly some pretty heavy handed policing. Some people say it was justified to fight extremism; I don't agree with that, but I also think that the Western media's portrayal of it has been so cynical and exaggerated as to basically not resemble the truth at all.
brain_in_a_box did a great job explaining about the source, about how it was not chosen for being a good source. Rather is is "reliable in the mainsteam" (read: virulently racist fascist state department drivel) and is still walking back the claim of genocide (since none is occurring).
I will try not to waste your time, since you said you were low on time, but I want to talk about genocide claims for a second. A genocide is a very serious concept, it is a word reserved for the most atrocious acts of extermination like the holocaust. Calling something a genocide when it isn't one is therefore anti-Semitic (this is brought up in the Foreign Policy article I linked) along with being deeply disrespectful to other peoples who have suffered through a genocide. Of course, the American government and the press it uses as mouthpieces do not care about this disrespect. You should though. I encourage you not to believe anything you read in the news, especially unverified claims of genocide without significant evidence. This is true for any given article, the info you are reading is manipulated, and "reliable" sources are actually lies designed to make you support war, racism, police murder, and other crimes against people.
Can you be serious for two fucking seconds? Jesus Christ liberalism is a terminal disease. Stop quoting a children's TV show and actually contend with real life.
Can you not think of any reason why the CPC in Xinjiang might be wary of weird AP reporters asking random people questions about covid and concentration camps on the streets? Have you literally not followed the RISE in anti-Asian hate crimes in the US? The accusations the US government flings at China every chance it gets?
do I come into your house and start throwing your plates on the ground? And then kick up a fuss when you ask me to stop? AP should be grateful they are allowed in Xinjiang, this isn't the century of humiliation anymore.
“Arabic is not the only language that compiles Allah’s classics,” the lesson said. “To learn Chinese is our responsibility and obligation, because we are all Chinese.”
Uhh what? Use your words and stop acting like a child. China officially recognizes 56 ethnic minorities, including Uyghurs. They all form the Chinese nation. Chinese does not mean solely Han. You don't know anything about China, maybe that's why your only arguments are drivel pulled from literal fiction. China is literally called Zhongguo in Chinese, which means Central Country. Chinese is Zhongwen, "language of the middle [country]". What about these words gives you the impression of [Han] Chinese supremacy?
Literally no source outlet, western or otherwise, has made accusations of killings in Xinjiang. You can't just make up allegations whole cloth and then ask people to provide reliable sources to debunk them.
You can't be bothered to read the thread you're commenting on?
They offered to provide a breakdown of the situation in Xinjiang, and I accepted and also politely asked if they could also provide some sources along with it, so I wouldn't just have to rely on "trust me, bro". They were, of course, free to decline, but they were nice enough to provide some
Sure. I'd also appreciate some sources that would be considered reliable in the mainstream, but I won't ignore you if you don't have them.
I'm going to swing in and suggest reading/glancing over the Original Adrien Zenz report. Zenz is a fellow at the heritage fund and part of the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation. Both notorious right-wing propaganda mills.
Nearly every article you have seen has either cited the original Zenz report, or a thinktank that cites said report. Often times if you dig into the funding schemes of those think tanks, you'll learn about all sorts of organizations explicitly tied to defense organizations. I saw one that was an Australian defense org funded by the US DoD.
Anyway, the original report focused on a possible cultural genocide. What this is referring to is the return of 1-2 child policies in China. Previously, these policies excluded most ethnic minorities within China, including the Uyghurs. With this new policy, this group would now be included in the 1-2 child restrictions.
Zenz extrapolated a slowed growth in Uyghur population, not reduction, or stall, but slowed. He concluded that these policies would result in a "Cultural Genocide", meaning an attempt to destroy the culture of the group, not the group itself. This does not make sense, as these were not hard targeted policies, but sweeping across the population.
The reeducation camps were something totally distinct from this report. Keep in mind that news media was using the report in order to call the reeducation camps essentially concentration camps.
Something that is often left out of the conversation is that Xinjiang has been host to many Muslim extremist terrorist attacks. The solutions that China chose may not have been the best, but if we're being honest with ourselves, are no worse than the immigrant camps at the US boarder. Except those are often privatized, profit centered, and have a constant stream of stories about neglect, abuse, and even forced sterilization. Most of the camps in Xinjiang have since been closed, as reported by AP.
I'm sorry I'm not providing sources here, I don't have my notes app set up on my current machine. below I'm going to give prompts to help you search.
Nearly any article will link to the zenz report if you follow citations well enough.
AP reported on the camps being closed.
In the US, Migrants were given hysterectomies without being told prior to the proceedure, often times they came to the doctor for other ails.
The burden of proof is on those who make accusations, it is not the responsibility of others to convince you of what isn't happening. Further, you may have heard the adage that an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence, of which there is none and can therefore be dismissed. Even further, when we look at who stands to gain from such a narrative despite the lack of evidence, it follows that US imperial power and Sinophobia driven clickbait news corporations stand to gain monetary and political standing by publishing articles like this. This is the same tactic as the Holodomor myth (which is literally an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory made by nazi propagandists and pushed by nazi lover William Randolph Hurst)
However, I once had a similar outlook and needed to be convinced, so here's three sources. Also this.
From the AP source:
Bruh, she got invited to lake Lao Gai for talking about sales slowing down.
Uhhhh
There is no COVID in Ba Sing Se lol. Not gonna lie, I think Chinese propaganda picks some strange hills to die on, COVID is everywhere, but whatever, it's not genocide.
Well, I'm sure they got the real story, or else.
I'm thinking "you can't leave this shop" is probably an inelegance of translation, and she likely means that the seamstress can't leave the vicinity of the shop. Still, that's uh... Difficult to fathom being applied to "most" of an ethnic population.
Yes, the AP article talks about how the prison camps were closed and stuff, that's all well and good. The minders didn't show them any mass graves, so I suppose that in that regard, there is indeed evidence missing to support genocide. That said, it reminds me a lot of how the US and Canada dealt with native populations, minus the physical relocation. Had they had the same technological capacity as modern China, it seems quite likely to me that Andrew Jackson would have been equally as happy, uh, re-educating the first nations in the way we've seen here. I have limited time to respond, so I'll get to the other articles as I can, but I wonder about choosing this article to defend your position. This reads to me like they've quite finished with their most extreme measures, which, given the state of the present, must have been quite impressive. I always admired the work of the early communist party in fighting for the rights and freedoms of black people in the reconstruction period, it's disappointing to see Saturday morning cartoon bad guy behavior.
So where does it talk about killings in Xinjiang? Or are you trying to move the goal posts.
I mentioned that it doesn't talk about killings, but I also point out that the reporter's entire visit was tightly minded and regulated by party officials. I don't imagine that they were in a special hurry to show them so much as a carton of spoiled milk.
But you're still moving the goal posts. They didn't post the AP article because it's a credible source on events in Xinjiang (it isn't). They posted it to demonstrate that even sources extremely biased against China weren't going as far as making accusations of killings.
Yeah, okay, fair enough. I don't have the time or will to commit to digging into resources to support my counter claim, and I'll concede that I'm goalposting.
Well I appreciate the good faith there.
As to the other accusations about Xinjiang, that's a more complicated discussion. I don't think anybody is claiming that nothing dodgy was happening at all there, there was clearly some pretty heavy handed policing. Some people say it was justified to fight extremism; I don't agree with that, but I also think that the Western media's portrayal of it has been so cynical and exaggerated as to basically not resemble the truth at all.
brain_in_a_box did a great job explaining about the source, about how it was not chosen for being a good source. Rather is is "reliable in the mainsteam" (read: virulently racist fascist state department drivel) and is still walking back the claim of genocide (since none is occurring).
I will try not to waste your time, since you said you were low on time, but I want to talk about genocide claims for a second. A genocide is a very serious concept, it is a word reserved for the most atrocious acts of extermination like the holocaust. Calling something a genocide when it isn't one is therefore anti-Semitic (this is brought up in the Foreign Policy article I linked) along with being deeply disrespectful to other peoples who have suffered through a genocide. Of course, the American government and the press it uses as mouthpieces do not care about this disrespect. You should though. I encourage you not to believe anything you read in the news, especially unverified claims of genocide without significant evidence. This is true for any given article, the info you are reading is manipulated, and "reliable" sources are actually lies designed to make you support war, racism, police murder, and other crimes against people.
A YouTube link was detected in your comment. Here are links to the same video on Invidious, which is a YouTube frontend that protects your privacy:
Can you be serious for two fucking seconds? Jesus Christ liberalism is a terminal disease. Stop quoting a children's TV show and actually contend with real life.
Can you not think of any reason why the CPC in Xinjiang might be wary of weird AP reporters asking random people questions about covid and concentration camps on the streets? Have you literally not followed the RISE in anti-Asian hate crimes in the US? The accusations the US government flings at China every chance it gets?
do I come into your house and start throwing your plates on the ground? And then kick up a fuss when you ask me to stop? AP should be grateful they are allowed in Xinjiang, this isn't the century of humiliation anymore.
Uhh what? Use your words and stop acting like a child. China officially recognizes 56 ethnic minorities, including Uyghurs. They all form the Chinese nation. Chinese does not mean solely Han. You don't know anything about China, maybe that's why your only arguments are drivel pulled from literal fiction. China is literally called Zhongguo in Chinese, which means Central Country. Chinese is Zhongwen, "language of the middle [country]". What about these words gives you the impression of [Han] Chinese supremacy?
Literally no source outlet, western or otherwise, has made accusations of killings in Xinjiang. You can't just make up allegations whole cloth and then ask people to provide reliable sources to debunk them.
They offered to provide a break down.
Of what?
You can't be bothered to read the thread you're commenting on?
They offered to provide a breakdown of the situation in Xinjiang, and I accepted and also politely asked if they could also provide some sources along with it, so I wouldn't just have to rely on "trust me, bro". They were, of course, free to decline, but they were nice enough to provide some
And it was still wildly out of line for you to expect them to. You wouldn't have had to 'rely' on anything; You Were the One Making the Assertion
Oh, okay.