No, overpopulation is not a legit issue, underdevelopment and poverty and education are. Furthermore as more tangential evidence on this line: In the US there is a long history continuing to this day of the US forcibly or coercively sterilizing non-white people thus it is extremely suspicious when a white billionaire with a god complex is extremely concerned about birth rates in Africa.
Malthus' entire concept of overpopulation stemmed from examining early industrialization in the UK and Europe and believing that population would outstrip food production, but the opposite happened; Today we produce enough food to feed everyone, but these countries remain as colonies to western capital and the threat of military intervention and the occasional CIA backed coup keeps them under the boot of the west.
So no, they don't just need contraception they need liberation.
I can't believe you actually would say this. I could, maybe, see someone thinking it isn't the biggest issue or that our technological advancements will keep ahead of population growth ... but with this categorical statement you're essentially saying the world can support infinite population.
I don't dispute we have plenty of food for the time being (until impacts of climate change on food supply become more pronounced over the next century. Meanwhile, right now, resources are becoming scarce. The western US hasn't enough water for the people it already has and is just one of many such places. Fishing populations continue to be depleted by overfishing in numerous locations as another example, and so on.
I'm well aware of forced sterilization and it is absolutely horrifying.
But it sounds like you're unable to distinguish between forced sterilization and availability of contraception to be chosen (or not) by individuals voluntarily. These are not the same thing.
The undergrad paper made the same mistake.
Furthermore, though I don't disagree billionaires interested in the birth rates of brown people could be seen as suspicious by you and others, suspicion is not evidence.
Another possible interpretation is that Gates is interested in making contraception available because, as I stated in a prior comment, voluntary family planning reduces poverty, reduces mortality rates for moms and babies, and so on, and I even linked a few studies in a prior comment.
I don't disagree that imperialism is a major issue for many countries and I don't dispute that US foreign policy has royally fucked a number of countries around the globe. I agree that these countries should enjoy liberation and self determination.
But that is all a non sequitur with regard to whether family planning is an evil eugenics plot. Bill Gates isn't the US government or CIA or any of that. It may all feel like it proves something but it doesn't. In a few years we can look at studies of red vs blue states to see what impacts banning abortion has without brining any eugenics into it.
If contraception results in less poverty, lower mortality rates, (it does, as supported by studies, as previously mentioned) and a better economy in these countries it seems to me that it is one of the things poorer, developing nations could benefit from to gain self determination and get the boot off their collective necks.
Finally, in my brief research this far, I've come to find that this whole eugenics thing with Gates is basically Facebook conspiracy nonsense.
Gates is a favorite target of conspiracy nuts aka people with poor epistemological skills.
I will believe whatever theory is best supported by the best evidence. But so far I haven't seen any even minimally acceptable evidence support such claims about Gates.
Contrast to the mountain of good evidence supporting that he is a total asshole in terms of relationships, business, stuff like that.
I'm certainly open to being wrong at any time as I have demonstrated many times in my life.
You don't get to the truth by bending logic and searching for any scrap to support your pet theory. That's conspiratorial, superstitious baloney you see in the movies.
You get to truth by following logic, selecting the best evidence and considering multiple explanations, being self aware about many cognitive biases, and arriving at the explanation that fits best. That is what is required to be "intellectually honest".
Okay let me take a different and slightly less civil tact here: When you impose conditions on a population that make it a hostile environment to raise children, you have companies like Nestle doing genocide for profit through their pushing of infant formula knowing full well the people they are pushing it on do not have access to necessary clean water to make use of it, which is also a result of colonialism and the deliberate underdevelopment of the imperial periphery, and then after ALL THAT you have an organization that comes along and offers up a solution that "Oh well obviously the problem is you just have too many offspring".
And you can't recognize the overt fascist motives here?
Like what the fuck dude?
This is intentionally genocidal and you are over here like "well ackshually" when you should sit down shut the fuck up and learn something.
I didn't say I can't recognize colonialism / imperialism of west and east or bullshit Nestle and other giant corps pull or the myriad ways the US fucked all these countries.
I'm saying you're supporting evidence and arguments for Gates doing eugenics is lacking. And now you're pissed and have to resort to "you should sit down shut the fuck up and learn something". This is the same type of reaction as trying to have a discussion with a religious nut (used to be one, now atheist) or a cryptobro. That's hardly being open to being wrong or being intellectually honest. I'm out. I hold no hard feelings on my end. Plus I intend to continue to look into the topic but life is way too short and I don't care to "debate" further here. Thanks and peace to you.
You're the one that already admitted you don't know much about this stuff and have only reacted dismissively to actual sources and confronted by people that DO know a lot about these topics. You had your worldview challenged and reacted with hostility.
Overpopulation is a myth that is constantly peddled by fascists. The problem is not too many people, the problem is the hegemonic system that keeps in place the conditions that cause people to have so many children, often out of necessity due to increased infant mortality and child mortality caused by conditions imposed by western imperialists.
The problem isn't people having kids, the problem is capitalism and colonialism. If the US disappeared right now the entire world would benefit more than any amount of just pushing birth control alone as a solution, when the people you are talking about, per capita, produce a fraction of the carbon and consume a fraction of the resources the average person in the west does.
You are the one that is not being intellectually honest here, by refusing to engage with the broader context of all of these conditions and actions and their dialectical relationship. I am trying to teach you, but you have to open yourself up to some self criticism and re-education.
And it's fine to admit you are wrong, nobody is going to ridicule you for that. But you have to start to acknowledge some of the chauvinist bullshit you have been saddled with that would bring you to such conclusions, otherwise our discussion is going to be fruitless.
Appreciate the reply. I will dig more. I am usually more glad to be wrong and learn something new than merely being right.
PS: if I may prod a bit on this...
Is overpopulation a legit issue separate from bullshit eugenics?
Do you think access to contraception improves health and economic outcomes for individual families? Also separated from bullshit eugenics.
No, overpopulation is not a legit issue, underdevelopment and poverty and education are. Furthermore as more tangential evidence on this line: In the US there is a long history continuing to this day of the US forcibly or coercively sterilizing non-white people thus it is extremely suspicious when a white billionaire with a god complex is extremely concerned about birth rates in Africa.
Malthus' entire concept of overpopulation stemmed from examining early industrialization in the UK and Europe and believing that population would outstrip food production, but the opposite happened; Today we produce enough food to feed everyone, but these countries remain as colonies to western capital and the threat of military intervention and the occasional CIA backed coup keeps them under the boot of the west.
So no, they don't just need contraception they need liberation.
I've only done a little looking into things.
I can't believe you actually would say this. I could, maybe, see someone thinking it isn't the biggest issue or that our technological advancements will keep ahead of population growth ... but with this categorical statement you're essentially saying the world can support infinite population.
I don't dispute we have plenty of food for the time being (until impacts of climate change on food supply become more pronounced over the next century. Meanwhile, right now, resources are becoming scarce. The western US hasn't enough water for the people it already has and is just one of many such places. Fishing populations continue to be depleted by overfishing in numerous locations as another example, and so on.
I'm well aware of forced sterilization and it is absolutely horrifying.
But it sounds like you're unable to distinguish between forced sterilization and availability of contraception to be chosen (or not) by individuals voluntarily. These are not the same thing.
The undergrad paper made the same mistake.
Furthermore, though I don't disagree billionaires interested in the birth rates of brown people could be seen as suspicious by you and others, suspicion is not evidence.
Another possible interpretation is that Gates is interested in making contraception available because, as I stated in a prior comment, voluntary family planning reduces poverty, reduces mortality rates for moms and babies, and so on, and I even linked a few studies in a prior comment.
I don't disagree that imperialism is a major issue for many countries and I don't dispute that US foreign policy has royally fucked a number of countries around the globe. I agree that these countries should enjoy liberation and self determination.
But that is all a non sequitur with regard to whether family planning is an evil eugenics plot. Bill Gates isn't the US government or CIA or any of that. It may all feel like it proves something but it doesn't. In a few years we can look at studies of red vs blue states to see what impacts banning abortion has without brining any eugenics into it.
If contraception results in less poverty, lower mortality rates, (it does, as supported by studies, as previously mentioned) and a better economy in these countries it seems to me that it is one of the things poorer, developing nations could benefit from to gain self determination and get the boot off their collective necks.
Finally, in my brief research this far, I've come to find that this whole eugenics thing with Gates is basically Facebook conspiracy nonsense.
Gates is a favorite target of conspiracy nuts aka people with poor epistemological skills.
I will believe whatever theory is best supported by the best evidence. But so far I haven't seen any even minimally acceptable evidence support such claims about Gates.
Contrast to the mountain of good evidence supporting that he is a total asshole in terms of relationships, business, stuff like that.
I'm certainly open to being wrong at any time as I have demonstrated many times in my life.
You don't get to the truth by bending logic and searching for any scrap to support your pet theory. That's conspiratorial, superstitious baloney you see in the movies.
You get to truth by following logic, selecting the best evidence and considering multiple explanations, being self aware about many cognitive biases, and arriving at the explanation that fits best. That is what is required to be "intellectually honest".
Okay let me take a different and slightly less civil tact here: When you impose conditions on a population that make it a hostile environment to raise children, you have companies like Nestle doing genocide for profit through their pushing of infant formula knowing full well the people they are pushing it on do not have access to necessary clean water to make use of it, which is also a result of colonialism and the deliberate underdevelopment of the imperial periphery, and then after ALL THAT you have an organization that comes along and offers up a solution that "Oh well obviously the problem is you just have too many offspring".
And you can't recognize the overt fascist motives here?
Like what the fuck dude?
This is intentionally genocidal and you are over here like "well ackshually" when you should sit down shut the fuck up and learn something.
I didn't say I can't recognize colonialism / imperialism of west and east or bullshit Nestle and other giant corps pull or the myriad ways the US fucked all these countries.
I'm saying you're supporting evidence and arguments for Gates doing eugenics is lacking. And now you're pissed and have to resort to "you should sit down shut the fuck up and learn something". This is the same type of reaction as trying to have a discussion with a religious nut (used to be one, now atheist) or a cryptobro. That's hardly being open to being wrong or being intellectually honest. I'm out. I hold no hard feelings on my end. Plus I intend to continue to look into the topic but life is way too short and I don't care to "debate" further here. Thanks and peace to you.
You're the one that already admitted you don't know much about this stuff and have only reacted dismissively to actual sources and confronted by people that DO know a lot about these topics. You had your worldview challenged and reacted with hostility.
Overpopulation is a myth that is constantly peddled by fascists. The problem is not too many people, the problem is the hegemonic system that keeps in place the conditions that cause people to have so many children, often out of necessity due to increased infant mortality and child mortality caused by conditions imposed by western imperialists.
The problem isn't people having kids, the problem is capitalism and colonialism. If the US disappeared right now the entire world would benefit more than any amount of just pushing birth control alone as a solution, when the people you are talking about, per capita, produce a fraction of the carbon and consume a fraction of the resources the average person in the west does.
You are the one that is not being intellectually honest here, by refusing to engage with the broader context of all of these conditions and actions and their dialectical relationship. I am trying to teach you, but you have to open yourself up to some self criticism and re-education.
And it's fine to admit you are wrong, nobody is going to ridicule you for that. But you have to start to acknowledge some of the chauvinist bullshit you have been saddled with that would bring you to such conclusions, otherwise our discussion is going to be fruitless.