Has anyone here ever successfully deprogrammed anyone from believing in the myth of welfare fraud, that the dems are giving handouts left and right, etc.? Asking because I've been talking to my mom and...look, I'm sorry, but the elevator just doesn't go to the top floor.
I graduated from college in May, and my parents have parent PLUS loans, and the monthly payment is $473. They're both complaining about the payment but boast about voting for Trump. Obviously, no, electoralism won't save anyone, but it's like talking to a brick wall when I explain to my mom that if she wants any chance of debt relief (or cares at all about the future of her disabled lesbian daughter), she can't vote Republican. But everything I say gets countered with "I don't think people should get handouts." When I ask what handouts Biden has given, eh can't come up with anything. Ironically, she frequently gripes about how her unemployment checks are usually late.
It's infuriating and honestly it's looking like our relationship will soon become a birthday and christmas only type of thing unless she shapes up. I'm sick of having family who actively support politics that harm me. I suppose it shouldn't be surprising when they both emotionally abused me for the better part of a quarter of a century. Having an actual support system irl seems so hopeless that I've been in a severe depressive episode for the past day.
Still, anyone had any luck with this? I keep explaining how the dems aren't a left wing party, neither party is for an abundance of benefits, etc. But it's like talking to a brick wall. I apologize if this post should've gone elsewhere.
If she's complaining about the government giving too many handouts despite being unable to name any and being on unemployment herself then the issue isn't about evidence. There's probably no amount of statistics or explaining that will change her mind.
So what do you think is driving her to be that way? Is it just bigotry? (likely)
Right, it's not about evidence.
It probably is some kind of bigotry. Racism (the myth of the welfare queen), ableism (the myth that people en masse lie about being disabled to get benefits), protestant work ethic, etc. No clue how to combat those things, though, other than explaining how these myths came to be, which I have. I'm just at a loss and would like to have at least one family member who isn't a total reactionary POS.
I feel you. I've had some success in making my family less prejudiced by explaining what they have in common with the people they're shitting on and how we could have easily been in their position. But if your mom thinks she's separate from and above everyone else then idk what you can tell her to reconsider.
Socialist countries had much less welfare than capitalist ones. Turns out there is no need for unemployment benefits and most other programs when full employment for livable wage is the state policy.
Exactly. I suspect whenever I talk about the reality of the USSR or other AES she just tunes it out because I was born after the cold war ended, though. I'll keep trying.
I get what you're saying, but I would still like unemployment benefits to still exist in such countries. As an extra layer of security.
In socialist Poland work was mandatory for everyone who was able to work, and people purposely avoiding work that were called "social parasites" (i remember some of them they were usually lumpens), but even they weren't thrown under the bus, they recieved social help, housing etc.
Between having people who refuse to work get benefits from the government versus having people who refuse to work rob people, think giving them benefits is still a better option for society.
Of course, that's why it had been done. They were also like entry level to what counted as underworld in PRL so militia asked them first whenver something was up.
What does she think about receiving unemployment benefits if she dislikes handouts so much?
I'm sure that in her mind she chalks it up to her (an honest, hardworking American™) being persecuted by dems who hate big business (if only that were true!). She's only ever worked factory jobs and retail, and I've tried to explain deindustrialization to her, and it's like she agrees but as soon as I quit talking she goes back to "handouts bad. jobs good. work ethic good. complaining bad. millenials and gen z bad. gen x and boomers good." Etc.
Thanks for your response. This is just a supremely frustrating situation all around.
A couple ideas for you:
Work on easier people, tons of people are only a couple good conversations away and are a better use of your time. I know it is tough cause it is your mom but definitely something to consider.
Get away from the two party discussion. Focus on concrete issues she faces and ask a lot of questions on how she thinks it should be handled. If she is a hard work and no handouts sort who has had factory experience maybe unions could be an in. Or ask about what she considers the minimum acceptable lifestyle and dig in to how to get society there for all, even the hardworking and down on their luck. Like what hoops is she willing to jump through if she got hurt or sick.
Genuinely me, I was one conversation away and all it took was one of my sisters friends to explain what socialism actually is
You're right, there are easier people out there. Problem is that I don't have much of a social life irl, partially by choice, and partially due to being autistic. I have tried to explain unions and their benefits to her once before, and she just came at me with "UnIoN dUeS bAd."
The thing is that she's from WV and her dad was a coal miner for a union mine that had showers for the miners to use at the end of the workday. She's told me a story about how in the 80s, the union went on strike, and her dad went to work for the scab mine with no showers and how heartbreaking it was to see him come home covered in coal dust. Again, it's like the elevator just doesn't go all the way up. She has the pieces but refuses to put them together. Part of me thinks she's just a lost cause.
If it's hurting your relation i think you should stop talking about it, people on the older side just simply can't face their contradictions and its better for your mental health to just stop trying.
I have an ultra-ameriboo dad and i have to hear the most unhinged shit every day, but i know his views will die with him. I've stopped taking him seriously a long time ago and it has been great for me.
I don't know if this is going to help you with this argument, but I think it needs to be pointed out that capitalist regimes don't provide welfare by virtue of generosity.
On one hand there is the revolutionary preoccupation, where welfare is a concession given to the struggling working class to negotiate the persistence of capitalism.
On the other hand, welfare is crucial to avoid having crime and homelessness to a scale that would make the petty privileged, labor aristocrats uncomfortable. This applies not very well to the USA though, but this is how capitalism has been maintained for decades in Canada and Europe.
Though we can see that more and more people are willing to go down the fascist road and let poor people die and not being inconvenienced by them thanks to a brutal police or even weapon ownership. The USA way is gaining ground and I don't think defending social democracy will bring us very far since it's definitely being beaten and we're not socdems anyway.
Right. I think I've sort of gestured towards that, but may not have explained it fully to her. I'll go more in-depth next time I get the chance to have this type of conversation with her.
My intent isn't to defend social democracy or the capitalist welfare state...I believe my post may not have fully gotten that across, sorry. The myth of people living it up on various benefits and them being easy to get is what dissuades her from going any further left. One root of that idea is that "lazy" people deserve to suffer, but goodness knows there are several more.
I'm just at a loss for what to do. I can be more open with her than my dad and she does have some decent social beliefs (such as that gay and trans people aren't freaks of nature that are doomed to burn in hell. very low bar, right?), which is what makes this all the more frustrating.
You have to think capitalist-brained.
Pitch welfare as an economic investment. If someone is in a temporary rut, give them assistance so they can bounce back. You'll make more on their taxes than you'd spend on them. Plus it keeps the economy from stagnating as layoffs occur.
But also stop trying to convince shithead boomers of anything political. They literally grew up with leaded gasoline. It literally does not matter and you shouldn't talk about politics. You are wasting your time and getting worked up over things that will not change nor benefit anyone.
Yeah, my goal isn't to convince her that the dems are good. I don't think they're good. I just wish she'd quit pretending to be ok with gay and trans ppl, lending milquetoast support to BLM, etc. while also being like "dems give handouts, I'm going to vote R" while also being on unemployment and being on the hook with PLUS loans until 2048! I'd honestly rather her be a straight up queerphobe (like my dad) than the way she is now. I wish she wouldn't vote Republican, since the hateful rhetoric is just unbelieveable now. I'm a white, cis, feminine lesbian and I feel unsafe...I can't imagine how it is for people with more marginalized identities.
