I think you might need to rewatch that scene. They're not just quiet. They're dead silent and looking him directly in the eye when they are inches from his face. Their faces also do not show any sign of remorse or pity or sympathy for what Tuvix is going through. They weren't frozen in state. Paris specifically turns around and holds his gaze as he walks not just in front of him, but then over to Kim. And I don't mean from a distance. Tuvix is inches from Toms face and Tom doesn't show a single shred of emotion. Just stares him directly in the eyes with no response. Then Kim? Does the exact same thing. No one comes to his defense except for the Doctor and the Doctor only rejects it based off of ethical concerns. Everyone else is acting off of emotional concerns, Janeway included.
On top of that, Paris and Kim both voice their concerns repeatedly throughout multiple episodes. There's no chance that they're going to suddenly stay quiet here simply because of "following orders state" when their characters are shown repeatedly to voice concerns when in those positions. Moreover, it would be truly awful directing to have them stare Tuvix dead in the eyes, say nothing, and show no emotion when they actually cared.
Tuvix was shown to be making passable attempts at being friends with the crew but the episode also directly shows that none of them got particularly close to him. Kes had a breakdown saying she wanted Neelix back. Especially considering it was 2-3 weeks since Neelix was on board. The loss of Tuvok and Neelix did not have any time to fade or go away.
Everyone on that bridge was with Janeways decision. There's a reason that no one questioned her except for the Doctor.
I completely disagree with your assessment on every single level and I also think you're being radically unfair to the crew of Voyager.
If there is no emotion in the scene, then why is it in the episode at all?
For the audience. For us to go "Woah."
If Janeway made the decision and everyone is A-okay with it, then why show their reaction at all?
To show how they agree with Janeway. No one is defending him. No one. This is a crew who repeatedly has called out Janeway and her issues to her face. On the bridge or in the ready room. Didn't happen here. I refuse to accept that "they were quiet because they'd been ordered to" is the reason, when they're able to stare him dead in the eyes and have no response. When you care about something deeply and when you think it is unethical, you stand up for it. That happens repeatedly throughout the show and even on that bridge. No one is going to sit there quietly. Janeway didn't even order the Doctor to be quiet. She just said move aside so she could do it.
Tom is sitting there with his mouth half open, not being able to say anything. I think the directing was clear there. For four entire minutes we follow as Janeway carries out the “death sentence”. We start with Tuvix protesting it, then the silence is only broken by Janeway’s orders, and the Doctor’s short objection. Nobody is okay with this, and everybody knows this.
Conjecture. No one else argues against the procedure. Only the Doctor. You are forcing opinions and words on this crew. You cannot state that anyone was directly against this and had a problem with it. You can't say "Everyone knows this". You were not on the crew and you do not get to speak unilaterally. More over, you're forcing that opinion on them with no evidence to support it. They never said anything against this procedure. None of them spoke up for Tuvix. No one said "Hey this is wrong". Meanwhile, they were quiet. Silence is complicity. Once again, we've seen people on the bridge or elsewhere specifically call out Janeway and her decisions. We did not see that here from anyone except the Doctor. There was also no order given for them to be silent. You cannot say that they were against the procedure when they didn't show any sign of protesting it.
Exactly. Which is why this scene is as heavy as it is. Do you really think Chakotay has no issues with what’s happening? No. Everyone had already voiced their concerns. The decision has been made. There is nothing left to say.
Do you really think Chakotay has no issues with what’s happening?
Considering he never voiced an opinion that he was against this, yes. I do think he has no issues with what's happening because I'm not willing to force my own opinions on the crew. I take them at face value from what they say.
Everyone had already voiced their concerns. The decision has been made. There is nothing left to say.
That is completely made up by you and wildly unfair to shove onto the crew. There are no scenes in which the crew voices their opinion with the exceptions of Tuvix talking to Janeway and Kes talking to Janeway. You don't get to say that they already voice their concerns when it wasn't in the episode. I'd really appreciate it if you could stick to stuff in the episode that we actually see. It is impossible to debate a point of view that is based off of stuff that didn't happen. If we didn't see it in the episode, or if it wasn't said/alluded to in the episode, then it didn't happen. I'm not ready to assume entire scenes happened that the episode don't show or frame or suggest.
When has four minutes passed without any of the main cast giving their thoughts about the current events? They don’t have to, because it’s obvious. I know you don’t think so, which is what baffles me.
Because this is a show where everyone gives their thoughts. Everyone weighs in. That's what baffles me about you. That you're so ready to disregard everything about the show and then say "Silence isn't complicity, it actually means they support him but they don't want to say anything because they have nothing left they can do." You claim that it's obvious but it's simply not. You're projecting.
If they had an issue, they would have said something. Then Janeway would have said "this is my decision, agree with it or " like she has a dozen times before and a dozen times after. If they didn't say anything it's because they agreed. This is not a crew that sits quietly and lets every order play out when they have an issue with it. This is a crew that has repeatedly gone against Janeway on multiple occasions to prove her wrong. If they had an issue they would have said it. I'm not even remotely ready to force an unspoken opinion on a character who was given the opportunity to speak and decided not to. I'm also certainly not ready to ignore the traditions the show has set up, as well as the character development, just to say "they were resigned to being quiet" when these characters have NEVER been.
I seriously regret engaging with this thread, which is a first for this server. I'm done. Goodbye.
I think you might need to rewatch that scene. They're not just quiet. They're dead silent and looking him directly in the eye when they are inches from his face. Their faces also do not show any sign of remorse or pity or sympathy for what Tuvix is going through. They weren't frozen in state. Paris specifically turns around and holds his gaze as he walks not just in front of him, but then over to Kim. And I don't mean from a distance. Tuvix is inches from Toms face and Tom doesn't show a single shred of emotion. Just stares him directly in the eyes with no response. Then Kim? Does the exact same thing. No one comes to his defense except for the Doctor and the Doctor only rejects it based off of ethical concerns. Everyone else is acting off of emotional concerns, Janeway included.
On top of that, Paris and Kim both voice their concerns repeatedly throughout multiple episodes. There's no chance that they're going to suddenly stay quiet here simply because of "following orders state" when their characters are shown repeatedly to voice concerns when in those positions. Moreover, it would be truly awful directing to have them stare Tuvix dead in the eyes, say nothing, and show no emotion when they actually cared.
Tuvix was shown to be making passable attempts at being friends with the crew but the episode also directly shows that none of them got particularly close to him. Kes had a breakdown saying she wanted Neelix back. Especially considering it was 2-3 weeks since Neelix was on board. The loss of Tuvok and Neelix did not have any time to fade or go away.
Everyone on that bridge was with Janeways decision. There's a reason that no one questioned her except for the Doctor.
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I completely disagree with your assessment on every single level and I also think you're being radically unfair to the crew of Voyager.
For the audience. For us to go "Woah."
To show how they agree with Janeway. No one is defending him. No one. This is a crew who repeatedly has called out Janeway and her issues to her face. On the bridge or in the ready room. Didn't happen here. I refuse to accept that "they were quiet because they'd been ordered to" is the reason, when they're able to stare him dead in the eyes and have no response. When you care about something deeply and when you think it is unethical, you stand up for it. That happens repeatedly throughout the show and even on that bridge. No one is going to sit there quietly. Janeway didn't even order the Doctor to be quiet. She just said move aside so she could do it.
Conjecture. No one else argues against the procedure. Only the Doctor. You are forcing opinions and words on this crew. You cannot state that anyone was directly against this and had a problem with it. You can't say "Everyone knows this". You were not on the crew and you do not get to speak unilaterally. More over, you're forcing that opinion on them with no evidence to support it. They never said anything against this procedure. None of them spoke up for Tuvix. No one said "Hey this is wrong". Meanwhile, they were quiet. Silence is complicity. Once again, we've seen people on the bridge or elsewhere specifically call out Janeway and her decisions. We did not see that here from anyone except the Doctor. There was also no order given for them to be silent. You cannot say that they were against the procedure when they didn't show any sign of protesting it.
Considering he never voiced an opinion that he was against this, yes. I do think he has no issues with what's happening because I'm not willing to force my own opinions on the crew. I take them at face value from what they say.
That is completely made up by you and wildly unfair to shove onto the crew. There are no scenes in which the crew voices their opinion with the exceptions of Tuvix talking to Janeway and Kes talking to Janeway. You don't get to say that they already voice their concerns when it wasn't in the episode. I'd really appreciate it if you could stick to stuff in the episode that we actually see. It is impossible to debate a point of view that is based off of stuff that didn't happen. If we didn't see it in the episode, or if it wasn't said/alluded to in the episode, then it didn't happen. I'm not ready to assume entire scenes happened that the episode don't show or frame or suggest.
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Because this is a show where everyone gives their thoughts. Everyone weighs in. That's what baffles me about you. That you're so ready to disregard everything about the show and then say "Silence isn't complicity, it actually means they support him but they don't want to say anything because they have nothing left they can do." You claim that it's obvious but it's simply not. You're projecting.
If they had an issue, they would have said something. Then Janeway would have said "this is my decision, agree with it or " like she has a dozen times before and a dozen times after. If they didn't say anything it's because they agreed. This is not a crew that sits quietly and lets every order play out when they have an issue with it. This is a crew that has repeatedly gone against Janeway on multiple occasions to prove her wrong. If they had an issue they would have said it. I'm not even remotely ready to force an unspoken opinion on a character who was given the opportunity to speak and decided not to. I'm also certainly not ready to ignore the traditions the show has set up, as well as the character development, just to say "they were resigned to being quiet" when these characters have NEVER been.
I seriously regret engaging with this thread, which is a first for this server. I'm done. Goodbye.
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