cross-posted from: https://lemmygrad.ml/post/2320476

cross-posted from: https://lemmygrad.ml/post/2320475

https://www.thequint.com/news/world/israel-palestine-war-jabalia-relief-camp-bombed-by-israeli-air-strike-in-gaza

  • H4mi@lemm.ee
    ·
    1 year ago

    If it wasn’t for where this was posted, I wouldn’t have been able to decrypt which side you think have done the worst atrocities.

    I guess I’m a liberal by western standards and I think the acts by Hamas and the acts by Israeli armed forces are both crimes against everything good in the world and I see no point in comparing them. Israel and the UN bears the responsibility for the conflict to begin with, but that turns into a non issue as soon as innocent civilians gets hurt.

    • TankieTanuki [he/him]
      ·
      1 year ago

      The larger context is important. One side forced the other one out of their homes at gunpoint. One side put the other one in a cage. One side is the oppressor and the other is the victim. Both sides using violence doesn't change that.

      Edit: Also keep in mind that your perception of the atrocities is filtered through Western media, which has a clear stake. Even the smartest leftists are still unlearning propaganda.

      • H4mi@lemm.ee
        ·
        1 year ago

        Yes, my surroundings are full of western propaganda. No argument there. So, Hamas did not really kill ~a whole camp of young festival goers, who were dancing on occupied ground? They didn't shoot unprecise rocket explosives on cities? Did I get that wrong?

        • MattsAlt [comrade/them]
          ·
          1 year ago

          You were physically at the festival I assume, to be able to say with such certainty what happened? There are also reports of police firing from the crowd and video of a fully combat ready tank on site before any conflict began. Couple this with the fact that all citizens 18+ in Israel are able to be conscripted and it further muddies waters on who is "just an innocent civilian" at an 18+ festival when combat is planned to occur.

          I'm not reveling I'm death, but you're flattening a very deep issue. There's already reporting that the tattoo artist that was supposedly stripped and paraded about after being killed was instead injured and currently in the care of Palestinians' in Gaza where Israel has been indiscriminately bombing, saying they do not care if they kill Israelis.

          You're acting as though Palestinians have a choice here. They do not have state of the art weaponry. I'm sure if the US or other "civilized countries" were to offer them more precise weapons to more surgically decapitate the Israeli apartheid state they'd graciously accept them. Are you writing your Congress person to authorize such a transfer?

          • H4mi@lemm.ee
            ·
            1 year ago

            Really? The festival’s being is in question? With 3500 attendees, many of them international? Posting videos of a normal looking psy trance event? That’s a conspiracy and could really be a military operation? And the Palistinians have no choice in the way they resist the occupation? I wasn’t there, but I’m very familiar with Universo Paralello.

            I’d love for Palestine to be military equal or superior, but my country doesn’t have a congress. We do have a stronger support base for the Palestinians than many other countries though. Zionists is a commonly used word.

            • Addfwyn@lemmygrad.ml
              ·
              1 year ago

              Can you begin to imagine being born and living your entire life in a concentration camp? Having children and knowing that they will know nothing but life as a prisoner. Now imagine that just outside your cages a bunch of your jailers are having a party. What would your reaction be?

              No, those attendees are not IDF operatives but they are settlers that are part of the Palestinians people's subjugation. Look, I understand that there are people born in Israel who did not choose to be there and I have some sympathy for specifically those people, though they should not be at a festival next to a concentration camp regardless. However, unlike the Palestinians THEY COULD LEAVE. In fact, in response to the attacks on Saturday many of them did just that. Guess what the Palestinians can't do, even if they wanted to leave their home.

              And the Palistinians have no choice in the way they resist the occupation?

              They tried peaceful protests years ago, Israeli forces shot them, specifically targeting medical personnel. The UN investigated it and determined that basically every fatality at the protests were unjustified, and condemned Israel for it. Then the international community proceeded to do absolutely nothing else.

              Would you prefer they try that a few more times?

              • PeeOnYou [he/him]@lemmygrad.ml
                ·
                1 year ago

                Not only do your jailers constantly party it up and rub it in your face, but they continuously steal land and homes from you and the other prisoners and continually violate your sacred sites and treat you as if you're not even human. Imagine that for your whole life. Slavery is similar in its total disregard for human life, but in this case they don't even want to use your labor so they have no incentive whatsoever to protect your life.

            • MattsAlt [comrade/them]
              ·
              1 year ago

              I'm not claiming the event was an operation, more that it was clearly in a conflict zone with combatants in the crowd. I don't know about you, but I'm not in the practice of attending raves outside a concentration camp with tanks on site.

              So what is your grand solution on coming to a solution then? Palestinians die each day nothing happens to bring them freedom. There is sweeping support for Israel from the most powerful nations in the world and little for Palestine, the feet dragging, Israeli slanted proposals obviously aren't in Palestinians' best interest, so conflict is unsurprising

            • ikilledtheradiostar [comrade/them, love/loves]
              ·
              1 year ago

              If I were to lock you in a cage and poke you with a poker every few days while only allowing you the bare minimum to stay alive, during your stay some people party next to you cage ignoring you for years. You know some , if not most of these people are my friends and aid me in my keep of you.

              During one of these parties you manage to pick your lock and find a weapon. What do you do?

              Oh yeah. I made the cage out of parts of your house, we're in your house, and while some of the neighborhood is on your side the chief of police is arming me and supplies party favors.

    • aleshasmiles@lemmygrad.ml
      ·
      1 year ago

      Colonial settlers stealing land from indigenous populations and participating in ethnic cleansing are NOT "innocent civilians". They are free to leave the war zone they created anytime they like. For Palestinians, this is homeland defense.

    • Outdoor_Catgirl [she/her, they/them]
      ·
      1 year ago

      If I broke into your house, chained you up in the basement for years feeding you only rats and gruel, and lived in your house with my family, would you want me dead? If you broke out and killed me and my family, that would be understandable to do, right?