EDIT: I'm very proud of this community. All the posts are making me think and solidly criticizing from an anti-imperialist perspective. Thanks, hexbear
EDIT: I'm very proud of this community. All the posts are making me think and solidly criticizing from an anti-imperialist perspective. Thanks, hexbear
I didn't include "My side". None of these bourgeois nations or international institutions represent the working class.
I think Russia's invasion was strategically necessary from a bourgeois nationalist perspective of protecting themselves from NATO expansion, and I absolutely think NATO/US/EU carry the largest responsibility in provoking the war. We should stand against all forms of bourgeois nationalism, while recognizing Russia and Ukraine as victims of US imperialism, and a byproduct of US-backed privatization in the 90s. I hope this isn't right deviationism but feel free to correct and critique this stance.
So you aren’t a Leninist? Lenin is talking about foreign capitalist nations and how attacking them while your own imperialist nation is at war is a form of imperialist intrigue. You are just doing ultraleftism right now and not principled Leninism.
The difference between organizing around the two:
Principled: Oppose NATO and work to stop weapon shipments and push for peaceful negotiation as soon as possible
Unprincipled: oppose everyone equally and sit on your ass going “let them fight”
The US/NATO/EU are responsible for the war, and they're also responsible for the Russian federation existing in its current form. I don't think I'm doing "imperialist intrigue" since Russian Federation wouldn't exist in the first place if it weren't for US/NATO/EU. If I criticize Russian Federation in any way, it is only insofar as they are a direct result of US imperialism. Hope that makes sense. Same goes for Ukraine and any other post-soviet country. They're all victims of US imperialism. To the extent that the meme is an incomplete or lazy metaphor, I apologize. I was hoping it could pipeline libs away from a pro-NATO stance but if it fails at that, maybe it needs to be rethought.
I don't oppose everyone equally or think the fighting should continue. I'd agree that a peaceful negotiation is necessary as soon as possible. But I don't see NATO relenting, or Russia letting its guard down, or the Ukraine govt. accepting any peace terms put forward by Russia.
So because NATO previously looted Russia that makes it more ok for NATO to attack them now? I don’t follow your convoluted logic to get out of revolutionary defeatism
I'm not pro NATO or think it's OK for NATO to do anything it has done. Where did I say it was ok for NATO to do anything? NATO shouldn't exist. And neither should the Russian federation. Bring back the USSR. Russian federation only exists because NATO destroyed the USSR through US-backed privatization and looting.
As I have said like 10 times already, fence sitting as a westerner is supporting NATO and failing your duty
how am I fence sitting when I said NATO/US/EU caused this war and also destroyed the USSR? Like if Ukraine and Russia were both still socialist and part of the USSR, and if NATO didn't exist, none of this would possible.
ASM won't be happy until you lick boots, just ignore
I won’t be happy until people here just are virulently anti-west in all scenarios and work to bring down their own empire instead of sitting back and enjoying the carnage. You live inside a Nazi regime, your inaction is complicity, and your attack of the enemies of your regime is a betrayal of socialism and internationalism
I agree with your political conclusions that being anti-west is necessary in all scenarios but not your characterization that comrades enjoy the carnage.
Socialism is the enemy of the United States, which is the imperial center of gravity. The Russian federation and Ukraine are both products of the destruction of the USSR by the United States. To the extent that the Russian federation is an "enemy" of the united states, it is only because it stands in the way of Unipolar US hegemony, but not in the way of Capitalism itself. I sincerely hope the bourgeois Russian government is ousted and Communists take power in Russia again. And I hope the same for the US. You're right, inaction is complicity. I'll try to demonstrate more against my country's actions, even if it gets me and my family tortured and killed.
There are multiple people in this thread who have literally said “let them fight”. That comes off as calloused glee to me, and a complete failure of critical support and revolutionary defeatism
It would be more coherent to address your objections to those people specifically than assume everyone who is commenting believes that.
@Commander_Data
https://hexbear.net/post/221339/comment/2817414
“Let them fight”
Look, I'm not going to engage with you. It's not fair to attack other people because I won't give you the reaction you want.
The user above asked for specific examples of chauvinism, I was pointing right at you. You can go away if you want
You could easily have done that without the @.
They are wrong to say that.
You've never read my other posts, huh. I'm a self-hating landback type. Hating :cracker: is kinda one of my primary traits. I just don't lick Putin's asshole every time I open my mouth, which is your minimum requirement for a good post
You claim to hate the US yet you spread US propaganda about its enemies, curious
:very-intelligent:
You have yet to figure out the concepts of revolutionary defeatism, imperialism and critical support
There is literally nothing critical about your support
You don’t read my posts do you? I have plenty of posts pointing out issues with Russian government structure, tactics, strategy.
There is literally nothing “support” about your critical support.
when you say tactics and strategy, do you mean to say that your criticism of Russia is that they aren't prosecuting the war effectively?
Yes, but also other areas.
For example, just yesterday I said that I don’t approve of Russia’s strategy of abandoning territory to save the lives of their troops if that means leaving behind sympathetic civilians that would be tortured and killed by the Ukrainians as traitors and collaborators.
I’ve also joined in with @granit in criticizing their neoliberal central bank policies, for example.
I shouldn’t even need to do these things to prove anything to you though. You should be following revolutionary defeatism.
what do you view as action in this case? is there a specific metric you have in mind for what meets your expectations?
I will not voice uncritical support for any country that actively attacks LGBTQIA+ people.
Organizing with whoever will join you to call for peace and and end to material support to Ukraine for weapons. Denouncing NATO. Calling for the dissolution of NATO. Not repeating anti-Russia propaganda.
Its clear you won’t voice critical support either, just sit on the fence. I assume you will be consistent in your take and denounce Palestine equally as Israel?
I think this is a fantastic meme to get people into the pipeline. Propagandizing requires tact. The less you say, the more likely people are to engage with it. While it would be cool if there were some meme out there that condensed all of ML theory into a funny wojak face, this is a pretty good way of explaining a current issue without immediately turning your audience against you.
As far as online activitism goes, I think our primary responsibility is to plant the seeds of class consciousness. This thread is proof that your meme can successfully facilitate the right kind of discussions.
yeah, "into the pipeline" I think nails it. i feel like this meme would be better aimed at the libs and socdems falling for the "NATO is protecting ukraine from Russian imperialism" BS than it is an adequate end goal for everyone's foreign policy takes.
:very-intelligent: