EDIT: AOC is doing what the unions wanted her to do.
https://hexbear.net/post/236928/comment/3033122
DISCLAIMER: Before you jump on me, the below post is to show how much of a dead end electoral politics is. You cannot vote in socialism.
But you should still vote in socialists. The more, the better. Building up the organisations needed to actually bring in socialism is much easier under a more left-adjacent government.
AOC and the other progressive Democrats did not vote for the anti-strike legislation because they’re liberals or hate workers or anything. Their vote was necessary to pass the 7 paid sick days bill. That was the agreement between the progressive and conservative Democrats.
But this nuance is fucking lost on people here. When you play the electoral game, you have to compromise. Every elected official will do so. AOC, Bernie Sanders etc. are not betraying the working class when they support such bills. They’re doing the best they can.
But it’s as if the people here don’t want the best. They just want empty gestures. And when people like AOC do the smart thing that would at least benefit some people, they act as if AOC is the same as Nancy Pelosi.
Guess who wants you to believe that? Guess who benefits from that? The Republicans. It’s grifters like Jimmy Dore and Infrared and Glenn Greenwald that push this rhetoric all to drive more leftists to either apathy or direct support for people like Tucker Carlson and DeSantis who are the “true” populists.
The vote passed by like over a hundred votes. The handful of progressive congresspersons couldn’t have stopped it. But what they could do, was get the other bill with the paid sick leave passed in exchange for a vote that was already going to pass. I mean, it’s like people are forgetting that the latter vote barely passed. Almost no Republican voted for it.
Why? Because the Republicans hate the working class more than the Democrats.
Please don’t forget that.
TLDR: AOC, even if it doesn’t seem like it at times, is better than most Democrats and all Republicans. A Congress and Senate filled with people like AOC will be exponentially more conducive to implementing socialism than any other. It will still not bring in socialism. Socialism can only be achieved by a revolution. But creating the conditions and the organisations and the class consciousness necessary for that revolution, is easier under a social democratic government than any other.
Yes. Electoralism is pointless. Because it’s pointless, elected “socialists” should act with reckless abandon to bring about workers concessions regardless of if their :vote: actually does so. Any attempt to legitimize electoralism by the elected official is just liberal nonsense.
What?
No, AOC is not going to bring about socialism. That’s my point. Expecting that of her, and being disappointed when she doesn’t deliver, is ludicrous. She’s not going to just go in and break things. She’ll get booted next term and be replaced by a neoliberal who’ll just make things worse. Her job is to do as much good for as many people as possible by working within the system.
"They can't do socialism because they'll be replaced. Therefore we have to support them in not doing socialism so they can stay there forever, not doing socialism but somehow making things better for people by not doing socialism"
:hesitation-1:
But have you considered :vote: ???
Please read what I’m writing and trying to say rather than just memeing and dunking. This is important.
Nah I’m good
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The entire post is about how expecting elected officials to enact socialism is pointless. That happens outside of congress. But a social democratic congress is much better and conducive to socialism than one that’s not.
Re-read what you just wrote and think about it for a minute.
?
This is just not true. The revolutionary fervor is crushed by social democracy, not by the stick like in fascism, but by a steady stream of carrots which is then slowly shut down over time when the threat of class conciousness goes away. This is material reality and how it has happened thus far. Your vibes are off on this one.
I mean, yeah, social democracy is not socialism. It’s capitalism. It will not directly lead to socialism. But opposing carrots is objectively easier than sticks.
It...really isnt.
Just....what?
"It's easier to oppose treats than it is to oppose boot getting stuck on your throat."
Please just consider what you're writing before you write it. Alternatively a very good bit, you had me going there for a moment :marx-ok:
I mean, the analogy breaks down, so maybe I shouldn’t have carried on with it.
I meant organising unions and co-ops and parties is easier under social democracy than under fascism.
I can say with personal experience that under social democracy you have toothless fucking unions that are too scared to rock the boat.
I will concede that yes, it's easier to create the framework for unions under social democracy, but under fascism you would hopefully be creating actually militant organisations instead.
that’s just accelerationism.
:shrug-outta-hecks:
yugoslavian partisans created a socialist country. swedish unions created a social democracy that sells weapons to fascists.
if thats accelerationism then it just proves that it's more valid than social democracy.
end of the line is this, social democracy does not create conditions for socialism, it actually destroyes them. this is how it has been and continues to be. unless you can prove otherwise?
Accelerationism, that is, letting fascism run wild in the hopes of that building up a socialist alternative, is a ludicrous ideology that will only lead to millions of deaths.
im aware, yes.
social democracy isnt much better. the fascism just runs wild NOT IN YOUR COUNTRY while NOT GETTING YOU ANY CLOSER TO SOCIALISM.
emphasis on the capitalised bit.
AOC is doing what the unions wanted her to do.
https://hexbear.net/post/236928/comment/3033122
so your unions are toothless too? should probably work on that.
AOC is doing what the unions wanted her to do.
https://hexbear.net/post/236928/comment/3033122
If she says she’s pro worker and the votes against worker interests, then what is the point of having someone there. I never said she’s going to bring about socialism, but if she just votes in accordance with the ‘optics’ and ‘good political strategy’ rather than on a principal of defending workers interests, she is just another liberal that is pandering to the trap that is electoralism
Electoral politics require compromise. If AOC and other progressives were not in congress, then the second bill, advocating for 7 paid sick days, would not pass. If you want more, then we need more people like AOC.
I want more, which means we need revolution not more liberals
Revolution is more likely under social democrats than under fascists.
Social democracy is the moderate wing of fascism
PLEASE READ THEORY
That’s just wrong. Social Democracy is objectively not fascism? What?
How did you wander onto this site, this is a basic fact
Social Democracies in the 1920s are different from the ones today. Back then, they were a conservative force attempting to suppress the growing communist movement.
Today, because of the material conditions and dilapidated state of socialism, social democracies can act as a progressive force.
Wrong.
Still are.
Social democracy is the moderate wing of fascism. Social democracies are propped up by the untold oceans of blood and sweat from the third world. They can not be progressive forces if they are actively being oppressive imperialist projects. You are a liberal if you disagree with this.
Name one AES country born from the conditions of a social democracy.
Social democracy is still capitalism, it’s just easier to organise in a social democracy than under fascism.
Also social democracy is the moderate wing of fascism
I feel like we’re just going around in circles. Do consider reading some other comments where I’ve addressed these points.
We’re not going around in circles. You are being a liberal and rejecting theory.
You keep saying this, but when asked to present evidence of this you resort to vibes. But what if I told you vibes could be off?
The only evidence I can present is logic, given there hasn’t been socialism in a developed country in peace time. If you disagree, then feel free to tell me how.
:galaxy-brain:
AES has almost exclusively occurred in either former colonies (Cuba, Vietnam, Korea, China) or countries that had experienced fascism first hand (Yugoslavia) or was a monarchy (Russia). None of these were Social Democracies, in fact they were all societies in which the class contradictions were most pronounced, which is antithetical to Social Democracy, which seeks to hide these contradictions. So yeah, show me the logic that Social Democracy will lead to Socialism. And then show me how American capitalists will let social democracy happen.
The material conditions of imperial core countries today are far different from those that preceeded any AES state. Even Imperial Russia had far different material conditions than its contemporary imperial near-peers.
So why would we expect socialism in today's imperial core to develop along the lines of prior AES states? The past does not encompass all that is possible. We have to consider that the next major socialist movement might not follow the course taken by the USSR, the PRC, Cuba, etc.
Yes, I don't see a problem with what you've stated, each revolution has its own conditions and moment. But that's different from stating that "Socialism is easier to get from social democracy than anything else because LOGIC". If you're going to make the claim that Social Democracy is the most likely to result in socialism have some reasoning behind your statement because it's historically inaccurate.
Do you see the contradiction in agreeing that each socialist movement will develop uniquely due to its unique conditions, but then rejecting as historically inaccurate a unique idea about how socialism might develop in the U.S.?
And from a skim through the thread they aren't just saying "LOGIC" and leaving it at that. For instance, they mention that unionization is easier under social democracy than fascism. Who's to say that mass unionization can't be a path to socialism in the U.S.? Wouldn't mass unionization be a big help to any successful socialist movement imaginable, even if it isn't that movement itself?
No, because they're not contradictory. Each revolution is unique, but it is historically inaccurate to assert that a social democracy is more likely to develop into socialism because that historically has not happened. It doesn't mean that it cannot happen, but to assert that it is the most likely method for socialism is absurd when socialism has arisen from every other way.
Yes, that would probably help, but rather than being theoretical we can just look at social democracies across the globe. When you look at European Social Democracies they're not becoming socialist governments, in fact they've mostly been regressing since their conception in the early 60's because again social democracy is not sustainable.
So again, if we are going to view this '"logically" the social democracies historically and contemporarily do not result in socialism. You can argue that they're better prepared for it, but there simply isn't evidence for that.
Thank you.
So is your argument that socialism cannot happen in the US or other western countries? What?
What do you even advocate for then?
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That’s…so defeatist and anti-solidarity.
Oh, the “Global South” who we’ve exploited and colonized for centuries will bring about socialism, we cannot do anything here.
NO. We need to bring socialism to the Western world precisely so we can stop the capitalist exploitation of the Global South that is making socialism there exponentially harder! You don’t get to fucking sit on your ass just because your in the heart of the empire. Fucking stab it from the inside!
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All of those things are easier to do under social democracy than fascism.
I'll be real with you. Social Democracy in the United States is not happening. It's 1. Not sustainable, capitalists love to heighten them contradictions. And 2. The US is the global capitalist hegemon they will put Social Democrats in camps before they let them raise taxes.
Then what’s your solution? Accelerationism? Let the fascists take power?
Shit will keep getting worse regardless of how hard your or I vote or how hard you or I decry accelerationism. I do not want things to get worse, but understanding socialism is to understand that YOU and I are not protagonists in history we are just people trying our best and the material conditions will do what they do regardless of your or my will upon them.
I have meaningful relationships with my friends and loved ones. I help out with the things that I can within my community and I've been working on organizing my workplace. These things will not create socialism, they'll just make this hellscape that we occupy a little bit better than they were before I got here.
That’s just so defeatist. I sympathise but I cannot agree. We have to prevent fascism. We have to achieve socialism. We just have to.
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But they’re all needed for socialism?
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Yeah that needs revolution.
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That’s just defeatism. Revolution is possible.
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