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bro it isnt a "fundamental part of life", its just that you are a caring and responsible parent who understands the gravity of what it means to raise a child to adulthood and accepts it wholeheartedly
raising kids should not be seen as a way of finding meaning for the sake of finding meaning, its someone elses life in your hands, meditation, prayer, and shitposting also exist
raising kids should not be seen as a way of finding meaning for the sake of finding meaning,
Good thing he didn't say that then. It's a fundamental part of life because it literally enables the existence of future generations of humanity. Human life doesn't happen without parents. It's fine to not want kids, its not a fundamental part of every single individual's life, but it is a fundamental part of life as a whole, for the species.
"Having kids is an amazing, life changing experience that transforms you and gives you the realiest opportunity to connect with other people and transform the world around you. The fact that we treat it as some kind of luxury, rather than a fundamental part of life..."
I hate this website sometimes. I typed out a whole reply and then clicked cancel accidentally lol
Anyhow, I can totally see where you would get that impression but I think you are kinda assuming the worst. I don't personally know anyone that thinks "everyone should have kids even if they don't think they want to" or anything remotely like that, and zifnab seems like a good dude, so I was more charitable in my reading. It was pretty clear to me that he was countering the increasingly deranged posts about how awful having kids is and nobody should do it by citing his own experience and those of people around him, not saying that that poster in particular, or "everyone always", should have kids. Just reinforcing that it isn't an inherently miserable experience, quite the opposite, for many it turns out to be very rewarding.
I don’t personally know anyone that thinks “everyone should have kids even if they don’t think they want to”
I do, I see it everywhere in person and online whenever the topic is brought up. Its a common cuckservative talking point and forms part of the background radiation of ideology.
However, “everyone should have kids even if they don’t think they want to” isnt the statement im responding to, its the assertion that having children is "a fundamental part of life" and is an inherently positive thing. I think this is dangerous in this day and age because everyone is on their own, the man doesnt give a shit about anyones wellbeing and our soyciety is basically a free for all.
As such, I believe that one should think really really really carefully about bringing more people into this world or taking on the massive burden of childcare, forming someone else's life. Suffering is a guarantee in life, are you prepared to subject another human being to it?
I think you're mostly right but the focus on "parents need to make a responsible decision" over "attack the forces that actually make our society such a cruel free-for-all" rubs me the wrong way. I'm sure you care about both, but rhetorically the focus is really skewed. I just don't think anti-natalism or whatever is super productive, even if conservatives are going crazyballs the opposite direction. People who feel as you do will make their choices one way, people who do not, won't, and I don't think convincing people not to have kids is nearly as productive as tryign to improve conditions for everyone.
and this:
Suffering is a guarantee in life, are you prepared to subject another human being to it?
this also does not sit well with me. Sure, there will be suffering in life, fine, but having a child does not mean you are the cause of everything that happens to them. Suffering has material causes that are not the sole responsibility of parents. If someone assaults your kid, or some company irradiates them and gives them a horrible cancer, or whatever, that is not the parents fault for bringing a kid into a world where that could happen.
Anti-natalism is defeatist garbage that surrenders all infinite possibilities of the future to the altar of capitalism. We should work to excise these ideas from ourselves. This idea is a bastard child of capitalist realism and causes loving awesome comrades to confuse compassion for cowardice. It posits that life is suffering and the world is damned to live out as a capitalist hellscape. The time for action is past, the world is going to burn, and everything nice will go with it. (For loving Disco Elysium so much this website seems to forget that the deserter isn't right) Anti-natalists cry out from the rooftops:
"save your kids from suffering!" "Don't bring new people into the world!"
They've given up. The logical conclusion from that is that we should all save ourselves from suffering by killing ourselves.
It's as if we're trying to end Capitalism by striking from the grave.
This is ridiculous. There is a time in your life that at least a single good thing happened. Or a simple hint that there is good in the world. One instance that bore the fruit of love for your fellow man. You wouldn't be a socialist otherwise. This kernal of joy is what you fight for. That is why people want to have kids. That is why people dare to die for something better. They wish to share and spread the hope and joy they feel for the world. Have kids or don't have kids. Work to share what you found to be beautiful in life. Work to make it exist more. Work to make that communist train utopia real.
Dare to live. Dare to die. Dare to win.
There is a world of wonder and beauty out there and we mustn't let the horror of capitalism deprive that from us.
Suffering is a guarantee in life, are you prepared to subject another human being to it?
Honestly, so what? Everyone in life is, at some point, going to experience some suffering or pain. That's just part of life and being human, I don't see how that can be blamed on the parents (unless the parents directly caused it). I suffer with physical pain every day, that's just part of my life. But most of the time, I still want to continue living, and I don't blame my parents for it. And when I have dark thoughts and don't always feel that way, I'm able to recognise that it's not a true reflection of my life and how I feel overall.
But most of the time, I still want to continue living, and I don’t blame my parents for it. And when I have dark thoughts and don’t always feel that way, I’m able to recognise that it’s not a true reflection of my life and how I feel overall.
I don't disagree with the overall premise of your post; however this section of it does tacitly admit that the main reason you're coming to the conclusions that you are is because you have other things to look forward to other than just being in physical & emotional pain 24/7.
That's not necessarily a given about anybody else.
it's pretty much rhetorically identical to what rando extended family members hound at me (UNPROMPTED) every gathering with their incessant demands to manufacture offspringlets
Not everybody that has kids is out to pester you to have your own. There are people that enjoy being parents, how would you exactly have them express it in words without you feeling attacked for it?
I think by not saying it’s a fundamental part of life.
It’s a wonderful part of some people’s lives, and for others they don’t want to do that. But it’s not fundamental. It’s really not that hard.
People telling me I should have kids drives me nuts and it happens way too often. Mind your own Fucking business. I don’t tell them that they shouldn’t have had kids.
I take the "fundamental" in that comment as being fundamental in the literal sense that we are all here because our parents had kids, is just the way humans perpetuate, not that everyone MUST have kids or they will be going against human nature
I dont want kids btw but I dont see any comment here as an attack against that descision
raising kids should not be seen as a way of finding meaning for the sake of finding meaning, its someone elses life in your hands, meditation, prayer, and shitposting also exist
in jest sure but putting raising kids and shitposting on the same sentence isn't a plus to your argument. meditation and prayer too. its one false equivalency after the other. having kids is a meaningful thing to do, wether you seek purpose or not.
people are planning not to have kids due to their material conditions. if having kids is so shitty then boomers wouldn't have done it. yet they did, and lived comfortable lives too because their material conditions allowed for it.
i've had siblings, cousins and nephews in my life and it was great. i also know that i won't be able to afford child rearing in any way. but if i won the lottery tomorrow i'd seek to provide the same environment i've had to someone else, either through foster care or helping to birth a child of my own. probably both.
(ok in all seriousness though how is meditation and prayer a false equivalency to finding meaning?)
its a false equivalence to having a child and building a family. the equivalence itself relies on diminishing that experience into 'finding a meaning', and then claiming that a good substitute for it is 'eating, praying and loving'. imagine telling all the lgbt people who fought for the right to raise a family that, actually, they lead vapid lives and should have gone on vacation to sicily instead. finding meaning is all there is, isn't there?
what kind of communist future does one actually wish to build if not to share with the future generations? if you can't reach that level of solidarity, why even pretend that unions and social welfare are important things?
again, raising a child is a meaningful experience. it's not clout chasing.
its a false equivalence to having a child and building a family. the equivalence itself relies on diminishing that experience into ‘finding a meaning’
no but OP was the one saying that its a "fundamental part of life" and whatnot, im not saying that its vapid or stupid or anything, and am definetely not saying that we should strip minorities of bodily autonomy because thats fucked
my main point is quite the contrary, that its dangerous in an abstract philosophical sense to put having kids on the pedestal as a means of finding meaning or having a meaningful experience because one also needs to consider the risks and the fact that you literally have someone elses life in your hands and/or are creating a being to have subjective existence in our world. Sure please go ahead if you know what youre doing but it shouldnt be done without acknowledging the gravity that the decision holds.
Sure please go ahead if you know what youre doing but it shouldnt be done without acknowledging the gravity that the decision holds.
And in saying so, you've proved yourself wrong. Child rearing is a fundamental part of life. It has been so for, well, the entirety of the human experience. It must be treated with the seriousness of something which, as you put it, is on a pedestal. Wether someone is fit for parenthood or not does not make it any less fundamental. On the contrary.
We live in a world that is not conducive to raising children. We have been rendered poorer, indebted and alienated. In other times, even those of us who couldn't or wouldn't raise children of our own would go on to engage it with others. Via foster care, or from fulfilling extended family duties. Even work, religious and military lives once held structures of kinship to them. Well, the extended family is dead by debt and so is the family unit. Corporate lives have no camaraderie or stability whatsoever. This leaves us with the cloisters of pretend Apostles and Salafis, of militias and soldiers. One wonders why the world is on permanent never ending fascist turn then. But I'm digressing.
Understand this: you did say that it is vapid and stupid to raise a child. Inadverdently. I don't think it was out of malice or anything. I think it is a wider societal cope that is spreading. You know, the kind of thing that humans do when they post 4-5 times a day on social media how happy they are that they don't have kids. There's the reverse side of the coin too. In reiterating that one is responsible and won't have children, some times people will point the fingers at the poors who aren't and therefore crank out the babies. These ideas spread in such a way that we end up ignoring that countries are going below replacement rate, ignoring all the people who are perfectly capable to be parents, and put emphasis on the horde that supposedly isn't. Nobody is born father of the year, and no generation has raised a perfectly trauma-less successor. But they still did it. Forever.
And yet through all of this new generations find themselves with no prospects whatsoever. Nevermind all the philosophical dilemmas about 'putting in a child in this world, just to suffer'. We are all going to work to death and only some of us will be privileged to entertain foster care. That's the future we are building. In this context problematizing a supposed sacredness of child rearing is to lose the forest for the trees, and to ignore the solidarity that humans will have to display if we are to survive this century at all. We are going to have to care for each other. We'll have each others lives in our hands. Where would you put that responsibility, if not on a pedestal?
bro it isnt a "fundamental part of life", its just that you are a caring and responsible parent who understands the gravity of what it means to raise a child to adulthood and accepts it wholeheartedly
raising kids should not be seen as a way of finding meaning for the sake of finding meaning, its someone elses life in your hands, meditation, prayer, and shitposting also exist
Good thing he didn't say that then. It's a fundamental part of life because it literally enables the existence of future generations of humanity. Human life doesn't happen without parents. It's fine to not want kids, its not a fundamental part of every single individual's life, but it is a fundamental part of life as a whole, for the species.
idk man he kind of implied it overall by saying:
I hate this website sometimes. I typed out a whole reply and then clicked cancel accidentally lol
Anyhow, I can totally see where you would get that impression but I think you are kinda assuming the worst. I don't personally know anyone that thinks "everyone should have kids even if they don't think they want to" or anything remotely like that, and zifnab seems like a good dude, so I was more charitable in my reading. It was pretty clear to me that he was countering the increasingly deranged posts about how awful having kids is and nobody should do it by citing his own experience and those of people around him, not saying that that poster in particular, or "everyone always", should have kids. Just reinforcing that it isn't an inherently miserable experience, quite the opposite, for many it turns out to be very rewarding.
I do, I see it everywhere in person and online whenever the topic is brought up. Its a common cuckservative talking point and forms part of the background radiation of ideology.
However, “everyone should have kids even if they don’t think they want to” isnt the statement im responding to, its the assertion that having children is "a fundamental part of life" and is an inherently positive thing. I think this is dangerous in this day and age because everyone is on their own, the man doesnt give a shit about anyones wellbeing and our soyciety is basically a free for all.
As such, I believe that one should think really really really carefully about bringing more people into this world or taking on the massive burden of childcare, forming someone else's life. Suffering is a guarantee in life, are you prepared to subject another human being to it?
I think you're mostly right but the focus on "parents need to make a responsible decision" over "attack the forces that actually make our society such a cruel free-for-all" rubs me the wrong way. I'm sure you care about both, but rhetorically the focus is really skewed. I just don't think anti-natalism or whatever is super productive, even if conservatives are going crazyballs the opposite direction. People who feel as you do will make their choices one way, people who do not, won't, and I don't think convincing people not to have kids is nearly as productive as tryign to improve conditions for everyone.
and this:
this also does not sit well with me. Sure, there will be suffering in life, fine, but having a child does not mean you are the cause of everything that happens to them. Suffering has material causes that are not the sole responsibility of parents. If someone assaults your kid, or some company irradiates them and gives them a horrible cancer, or whatever, that is not the parents fault for bringing a kid into a world where that could happen.
Anti-natalism is defeatist garbage that surrenders all infinite possibilities of the future to the altar of capitalism. We should work to excise these ideas from ourselves. This idea is a bastard child of capitalist realism and causes loving awesome comrades to confuse compassion for cowardice. It posits that life is suffering and the world is damned to live out as a capitalist hellscape. The time for action is past, the world is going to burn, and everything nice will go with it. (For loving Disco Elysium so much this website seems to forget that the deserter isn't right) Anti-natalists cry out from the rooftops: "save your kids from suffering!" "Don't bring new people into the world!"
They've given up. The logical conclusion from that is that we should all save ourselves from suffering by killing ourselves.
It's as if we're trying to end Capitalism by striking from the grave.
This is ridiculous. There is a time in your life that at least a single good thing happened. Or a simple hint that there is good in the world. One instance that bore the fruit of love for your fellow man. You wouldn't be a socialist otherwise. This kernal of joy is what you fight for. That is why people want to have kids. That is why people dare to die for something better. They wish to share and spread the hope and joy they feel for the world. Have kids or don't have kids. Work to share what you found to be beautiful in life. Work to make it exist more. Work to make that communist train utopia real.
Dare to live. Dare to die. Dare to win. There is a world of wonder and beauty out there and we mustn't let the horror of capitalism deprive that from us.
:communism-will-win:
:order-of-lenin:
I've been handing out more of these than usual lately. Semper Post, Hexbear!
Awful post.
Ok
Something that isn't awful? The extinction of the human race because kids bad. /s
deleted by creator
Honestly, so what? Everyone in life is, at some point, going to experience some suffering or pain. That's just part of life and being human, I don't see how that can be blamed on the parents (unless the parents directly caused it). I suffer with physical pain every day, that's just part of my life. But most of the time, I still want to continue living, and I don't blame my parents for it. And when I have dark thoughts and don't always feel that way, I'm able to recognise that it's not a true reflection of my life and how I feel overall.
I don't disagree with the overall premise of your post; however this section of it does tacitly admit that the main reason you're coming to the conclusions that you are is because you have other things to look forward to other than just being in physical & emotional pain 24/7.
That's not necessarily a given about anybody else.
deleted by creator
it's pretty much rhetorically identical to what rando extended family members hound at me (UNPROMPTED) every gathering with their incessant demands to manufacture offspringlets
Not everybody that has kids is out to pester you to have your own. There are people that enjoy being parents, how would you exactly have them express it in words without you feeling attacked for it?
I think by not saying it’s a fundamental part of life.
It’s a wonderful part of some people’s lives, and for others they don’t want to do that. But it’s not fundamental. It’s really not that hard.
People telling me I should have kids drives me nuts and it happens way too often. Mind your own Fucking business. I don’t tell them that they shouldn’t have had kids.
I take the "fundamental" in that comment as being fundamental in the literal sense that we are all here because our parents had kids, is just the way humans perpetuate, not that everyone MUST have kids or they will be going against human nature
I dont want kids btw but I dont see any comment here as an attack against that descision
deleted by creator
in jest sure but putting raising kids and shitposting on the same sentence isn't a plus to your argument. meditation and prayer too. its one false equivalency after the other. having kids is a meaningful thing to do, wether you seek purpose or not.
people are planning not to have kids due to their material conditions. if having kids is so shitty then boomers wouldn't have done it. yet they did, and lived comfortable lives too because their material conditions allowed for it.
i've had siblings, cousins and nephews in my life and it was great. i also know that i won't be able to afford child rearing in any way. but if i won the lottery tomorrow i'd seek to provide the same environment i've had to someone else, either through foster care or helping to birth a child of my own. probably both.
no i was being over 9000% serious, to make a good shitpost is like having a child, you need to nurture it for it to grow
(ok in all seriousness though how is meditation and prayer a false equivalency to finding meaning?)
its a false equivalence to having a child and building a family. the equivalence itself relies on diminishing that experience into 'finding a meaning', and then claiming that a good substitute for it is 'eating, praying and loving'. imagine telling all the lgbt people who fought for the right to raise a family that, actually, they lead vapid lives and should have gone on vacation to sicily instead. finding meaning is all there is, isn't there?
what kind of communist future does one actually wish to build if not to share with the future generations? if you can't reach that level of solidarity, why even pretend that unions and social welfare are important things?
again, raising a child is a meaningful experience. it's not clout chasing.
no but OP was the one saying that its a "fundamental part of life" and whatnot, im not saying that its vapid or stupid or anything, and am definetely not saying that we should strip minorities of bodily autonomy because thats fucked
my main point is quite the contrary, that its dangerous in an abstract philosophical sense to put having kids on the pedestal as a means of finding meaning or having a meaningful experience because one also needs to consider the risks and the fact that you literally have someone elses life in your hands and/or are creating a being to have subjective existence in our world. Sure please go ahead if you know what youre doing but it shouldnt be done without acknowledging the gravity that the decision holds.
And in saying so, you've proved yourself wrong. Child rearing is a fundamental part of life. It has been so for, well, the entirety of the human experience. It must be treated with the seriousness of something which, as you put it, is on a pedestal. Wether someone is fit for parenthood or not does not make it any less fundamental. On the contrary.
We live in a world that is not conducive to raising children. We have been rendered poorer, indebted and alienated. In other times, even those of us who couldn't or wouldn't raise children of our own would go on to engage it with others. Via foster care, or from fulfilling extended family duties. Even work, religious and military lives once held structures of kinship to them. Well, the extended family is dead by debt and so is the family unit. Corporate lives have no camaraderie or stability whatsoever. This leaves us with the cloisters of pretend Apostles and Salafis, of militias and soldiers. One wonders why the world is on permanent never ending fascist turn then. But I'm digressing.
Understand this: you did say that it is vapid and stupid to raise a child. Inadverdently. I don't think it was out of malice or anything. I think it is a wider societal cope that is spreading. You know, the kind of thing that humans do when they post 4-5 times a day on social media how happy they are that they don't have kids. There's the reverse side of the coin too. In reiterating that one is responsible and won't have children, some times people will point the fingers at the poors who aren't and therefore crank out the babies. These ideas spread in such a way that we end up ignoring that countries are going below replacement rate, ignoring all the people who are perfectly capable to be parents, and put emphasis on the horde that supposedly isn't. Nobody is born father of the year, and no generation has raised a perfectly trauma-less successor. But they still did it. Forever.
And yet through all of this new generations find themselves with no prospects whatsoever. Nevermind all the philosophical dilemmas about 'putting in a child in this world, just to suffer'. We are all going to work to death and only some of us will be privileged to entertain foster care. That's the future we are building. In this context problematizing a supposed sacredness of child rearing is to lose the forest for the trees, and to ignore the solidarity that humans will have to display if we are to survive this century at all. We are going to have to care for each other. We'll have each others lives in our hands. Where would you put that responsibility, if not on a pedestal?
Beautifully put :gold-antifa: