Btw what we mean by liberals is the original political term for those who support capitalism, not the colloquial American synonym for Democrat that alt-right types use. Conservative and libertarians are also liberals strictly speaking because they also subscribe to the same basic underlying ideology.
Edit: quoting the relevant part
In Europe and Latin America, liberalism means a moderate form of classical liberalism and includes both conservative liberalism (centre-right liberalism) and social liberalism (centre-left liberalism). In North America, liberalism almost exclusively refers to social liberalism.
Conservative and libertarians are also liberals strictly speaking because they also subscribe to the same basic underlying ideology.
How can you say such a thing! There's a full 16pt difference in our preferred tax rates and we still can't agree on the exact specifications of the worker visa program for illegal residents
Old joke, the Soviet Union could’ve avoided collapse if instead of having one official state party, they had two, and they agreed on absolutely everything except abortion.
There's actually a lot to be said about the concept of "competitive" (not necessarily democratic) elections and how they increase the stability of a political system by shifting people's perceptions of what is wrong, that's part of what Fritz Bartel talks about in "The Triumph of Broken Promises", the neoliberal period imposed extremely harsh conditions on people but everybody went along in the end because they felt that they had a choice in the matter (lol) meanwhile the eastern block states wanted to try doing austerity but they knew the people would never stand for it.
Also ties into Chomsky’s observation that compliance with a political economy regime is done by having a narrow band of acceptable opinions but fierce debate within the band.
Hey I just wanted to stop in and say thanks for being patient, the whole terminology thing around ideologies is one of the more confusing barriers to entry into leftist thought but you're working thru it like a champ
You've already been linked the Wikipedia definition which is super helpful but I'm gonna paste the first bit again because it's worth reading more times, for fluent lefties as well:
Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed, political equality, right to private property and equality before the law. Liberals espouse various views depending on their understanding of these principles but generally support private property, market economies, individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), liberal democracy, secularism, rule of law, economic and political freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, and freedom of religion, constitutional government and privacy rights.
Based on this, all democrats and pretty much all republicans and libertarians are liberals, and that's on purpose. This is what we mean when we throw punches at "libs" - we all believe that some of these qualities are good, but libs believe that all of these things are good - we don't terribly like things like "equality before the law" (it's just as bad for Jeff Bezos to steal a loaf of bread from a supermarket as it is for a houseless person), "freedom of the press/speech" (your freedom of the press is legally endowed on you just as it is to Elon Musk or Rupert Murdoch even though their actual freedom of the press is millions of times what yours is because they own billion dollar news and speech platforms), "right to private property" (you have the right to own dozens of resort properties just like Donald Trump does), etc. Liberalism - democrat, Republican, and libertarian - is built on the idea that everyone can use dollars and power and status to exercise their rights to whatever degree they want to, and one of our biggest reasons for calling them out under their shared umbrella of liberalism is that they all share the same fallacious worldview that allows people with more dollars to have more fundamental enshrined rights, and even though people with very few dollars can't actually exercise any of their fundamental enshrined rights, liberals pretend they have the same rights just because they could exercise them if they had more money.
To be fair, this is more an American english thing. Re-quoting the relevant part of the Wikipedia article
In Europe and Latin America, liberalism means a moderate form of classical liberalism and includes both conservative liberalism (centre-right liberalism) and social liberalism (centre-left liberalism). In North America, liberalism almost exclusively refers to social liberalism.
even that's not entirely accurate. in hungary for example, "libsi", "liberális" means what it does in mainstream american politics (rabid capitalists that are not necessarily against gay people existing). this isnt that surprising, since orban hired former republican campaign managers to build up his image/rhetoric
It's a problem. Libertarians stole "libertarian" for the Anarchists. "Liberal" now means you want to paint a rainbow on the bomb. People think "Conservatism" is a real thing but Nazis aren't. Most people have no idea what Anarchism, Communism, or Socialism actually entail, let alone the enormous breadth of thouaght across the length.
Not really, terms should be historically constituted and there is a serious amount of self-codification among liberal theorists that makes the term extremely useful
There are only eight subspecies of liberalism that actually matter to real world politics, and they cover everything between anarcho-capitalists to DNC blue no matter who libs
Classical liberalism, utopian liberalism, social liberalism, neoliberalism, ordoliberalism, dirigisme, siege liberalism, and the mutated step-child fascism, these are the actual differentiations among the defenders of capitalism
There is only confusion on this matter because utopian, social and neo liberals successfully appropriated a mountain of socialist and anarchist lingo and incoherently applied it to themselves. I don't blame them, liberalism is deprived of any genuine vision of human progress or solidarity, it wears the liberatory spirit of anti-capitalist ideologies like a carnival mask and as a result millions of potential radicals end up confused as to where they stand in the struggle over capitalism
I think he misspelled lib.
Btw what we mean by liberals is the original political term for those who support capitalism, not the colloquial American synonym for Democrat that alt-right types use. Conservative and libertarians are also liberals strictly speaking because they also subscribe to the same basic underlying ideology.
Edit: quoting the relevant part
Old joke, the Soviet Union could’ve avoided collapse if instead of having one official state party, they had two, and they agreed on absolutely everything except abortion.
There's actually a lot to be said about the concept of "competitive" (not necessarily democratic) elections and how they increase the stability of a political system by shifting people's perceptions of what is wrong, that's part of what Fritz Bartel talks about in "The Triumph of Broken Promises", the neoliberal period imposed extremely harsh conditions on people but everybody went along in the end because they felt that they had a choice in the matter (lol) meanwhile the eastern block states wanted to try doing austerity but they knew the people would never stand for it.
Also ties into Chomsky’s observation that compliance with a political economy regime is done by having a narrow band of acceptable opinions but fierce debate within the band.
Didn't know he made that point, very astute
We really gotta get more unique words for things.
Hey I just wanted to stop in and say thanks for being patient, the whole terminology thing around ideologies is one of the more confusing barriers to entry into leftist thought but you're working thru it like a champ
You've already been linked the Wikipedia definition which is super helpful but I'm gonna paste the first bit again because it's worth reading more times, for fluent lefties as well:
Based on this, all democrats and pretty much all republicans and libertarians are liberals, and that's on purpose. This is what we mean when we throw punches at "libs" - we all believe that some of these qualities are good, but libs believe that all of these things are good - we don't terribly like things like "equality before the law" (it's just as bad for Jeff Bezos to steal a loaf of bread from a supermarket as it is for a houseless person), "freedom of the press/speech" (your freedom of the press is legally endowed on you just as it is to Elon Musk or Rupert Murdoch even though their actual freedom of the press is millions of times what yours is because they own billion dollar news and speech platforms), "right to private property" (you have the right to own dozens of resort properties just like Donald Trump does), etc. Liberalism - democrat, Republican, and libertarian - is built on the idea that everyone can use dollars and power and status to exercise their rights to whatever degree they want to, and one of our biggest reasons for calling them out under their shared umbrella of liberalism is that they all share the same fallacious worldview that allows people with more dollars to have more fundamental enshrined rights, and even though people with very few dollars can't actually exercise any of their fundamental enshrined rights, liberals pretend they have the same rights just because they could exercise them if they had more money.
Gotcha. Thanks for the additional information. Politics can get muddy real fast, and terms can be abused or misused to create confusion.
that's why we stick to the definitions used globally and historically and avoid the colloquial usage. culture changes but history is already written.
🥰
To be fair, this is more an American english thing. Re-quoting the relevant part of the Wikipedia article
even that's not entirely accurate. in hungary for example, "libsi", "liberális" means what it does in mainstream american politics (rabid capitalists that are not necessarily against gay people existing). this isnt that surprising, since orban hired former republican campaign managers to build up his image/rhetoric
I didn't really want to get into Overton Window stuff in a brief post but yes, good point.
It's a problem. Libertarians stole "libertarian" for the Anarchists. "Liberal" now means you want to paint a rainbow on the bomb. People think "Conservatism" is a real thing but Nazis aren't. Most people have no idea what Anarchism, Communism, or Socialism actually entail, let alone the enormous breadth of thouaght across the length.
We just need a point system.
Ohhh you’re a 230? Fuck you 200 class people! Haha 😛
Not really, terms should be historically constituted and there is a serious amount of self-codification among liberal theorists that makes the term extremely useful
There are only eight subspecies of liberalism that actually matter to real world politics, and they cover everything between anarcho-capitalists to DNC blue no matter who libs
Classical liberalism, utopian liberalism, social liberalism, neoliberalism, ordoliberalism, dirigisme, siege liberalism, and the mutated step-child fascism, these are the actual differentiations among the defenders of capitalism
There is only confusion on this matter because utopian, social and neo liberals successfully appropriated a mountain of socialist and anarchist lingo and incoherently applied it to themselves. I don't blame them, liberalism is deprived of any genuine vision of human progress or solidarity, it wears the liberatory spirit of anti-capitalist ideologies like a carnival mask and as a result millions of potential radicals end up confused as to where they stand in the struggle over capitalism
The popular American usage can just die as it isn't specifically useful anyway
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