It's a vibes-based invective liberals use the same way chuds use "woke" to dispel any cognitive dissonance that might crop up whenever they discover information they find displeasing because it might mean the rest of the delusions they're immersed in might not be all that airtight. Just a thought-terminating word with absolutely no meaning. Just like "whataboutism," it's a weasel's way out of addressing someone else's argument in good faith (which I have yet to see you display in this thread).
Personally, it's absolutely fucking hilarious to see how much these words get thrown around, especially when it comes from so-called "leftists." If you truly are one, you ought to quit it with that bullshit.
I know it gets used like shit but do you think there's any utility in the term 'whataboutism' if the definition is strict? Like I always understood it to be pointing out ludicrous pontificating about things that'll never happen. Obviously that's not how it's used at all in reality and your description is much more apt.
The term (or the term whataboutery, which it emerged from) was originally used by pro-British newspapers during the troubles to complain that when people would whine about IRA activities others would respond by pointing out that their direct opposition, the British, were committing atrocities.
It's always been a tool for Western hegemony to avoid criticism and accusations of hypocrisy.
Wow that was definitely an enlightening read on the etymology, so the word was fucked from the get go haha..
Sean O’Conaill (1976) - 'I would not suggest such a thing were it not for the Whatabouts. These are the people who answer every condemnation of the Provisional I.R.A. with an argument to prove the greater immorality of the “enemy”, and therefore the justice of the Provisionals’ cause: “What about Bloody Sunday, internment, torture, force feeding, army intimidation?”. '
I see, my mistake, though from a descriptivist standpoint a meaning that a word long-since lost and one that it never had are virtually the same thing on a functional level
I know it gets used like shit but do you think there's any utility in the term 'whataboutism' if the definition is strict?
Nope. Because the argument always goes like this:
non-neutral party brings up problem about non-western place
someone says "well this is actually a bigger problem in the west" after which they get le downvoted
the rationale is "well we're not talking about the west right now so that's whataboutism"
The actual problem starts at step 1, and it's started by westoids and their news media outlets who constantly a) attack free non-white countries (and Russia) b) stay silent about the (usually much worse) stuff the west is currently doing
For example, how many westoids have ever said anything about the EU overfishing Indian Ocean waters? Instead it's always China overfishing X, or making Y animal extinct, even though westoids consume 4x more resources per capita and 90% of the rhino and elephant populations were killed by whites since the 1800s. Fuck mayos and fuck anyone who even reasons within their moronic bullshit paradigm
It'd be tough to get everyone to sign on, but I'd be down for your definition. It sounds like it better matches the word itself. Feels like a term I could use as a synonym for brainstorming, or when I talk about transit expansions in my city
Gulag just means prison in Russian. I don't know what they call prisons in China, but its not gulag. The prison system refered to as "the Gulag" in the west only existed for like 20 years or so. Less people were imprisioned in that system than at any time under Czarist russia, and far less than in the US now.
Just because it has a foreign name doesn't make it anything other than just a prison. I know you're an anarchist and for prison abolition, which is cool. But don't act like there are some kind of extra bad prisons in AES
Ok great. Honestly I'm getting tired & running out of steam arguing with people.
Truth is this. When one of the first big lemmy jumps from reddit came I heard that hexbear was cool a leftist space. so hopped on. I was honestly disgusted by the comments i saw. I saw so many people arguing blindly for CPC and DPRK. Saying they were better than the US and calling anybody critiquing the bold claims they were making libs. such as "Cpc is the future socialism." And "all the bad things people say about the CPC is american propaganda. "
Basically same thing that happend here when I defined tankie as authoritarian communist . In fact I saw this kind of thing on reddit too alot.
I dont give a fuck what you say or what other commenters post. I've seen this phenomena myself. I've been called a lib, So many times, simply for posting that I don't support Russia or the CPC in leftist spaces. I'm sick of it.
So what are we arguing about? Is hexbear not as bad as I thought it was? Ok cool. Im wrong.
I know there are people in "your" community that are actual tankies. I've argued with them myself.
Are you trying to say these people don't exist?
Cuz If you are, You're the one that is full shit.
Have you ever heard of supporting ideas and not concepts as a whole?
What I’m saying (and I assume others on Hexbear) when I mention CPC, the USSR or DPRK is taking ideas that are meant for empowering the working class, not the whole concept. The problem is that in the current world the CPC have much more empowerment of the working class than say many of the western countries, with the US being one of the worst offenders.
So if you call that blindly supporting the CPC, then I guess we can’t have a conversation about Marxist (or any other political thought) at all.
Like let’s say for example Mao and his views towards landlords it’s not as much the hatred towards a landlord as a person (sure there is some animosity) but more of a hatred towards the idea of landlords.
Honestly if you really are a critical-thinker Hexbear is a place where that critical thought can flourish as you’ll get called out on bullshit as much as you’ll get great sources of information if you ask for them.
When did my personal opinions on Russia or China come into any of this lol all I said was that "tankie" has no definitive meaning as used and that leftists using it is dumb and makes them sound like liberals. That the term to you equates to uncritical support of AES and Russia kind of proves the point in both respects.
How do you build a future for leftism if you're going to just call people tankies and tell them to fuck off back to hexbear and lemmygrad? They're about the last place I'd expect fascism to be celebrated based on my experience.
It's a vibes-based invective liberals use the same way chuds use "woke" to dispel any cognitive dissonance that might crop up whenever they discover information they find displeasing because it might mean the rest of the delusions they're immersed in might not be all that airtight. Just a thought-terminating word with absolutely no meaning. Just like "whataboutism," it's a weasel's way out of addressing someone else's argument in good faith (which I have yet to see you display in this thread).
Personally, it's absolutely fucking hilarious to see how much these words get thrown around, especially when it comes from so-called "leftists." If you truly are one, you ought to quit it with that bullshit.
Go Team Venture!
✌️💀✌️
I know it gets used like shit but do you think there's any utility in the term 'whataboutism' if the definition is strict? Like I always understood it to be pointing out ludicrous pontificating about things that'll never happen. Obviously that's not how it's used at all in reality and your description is much more apt.
The new use will struggle while the old use remains popular
I believe that was the original intent of the word, just wondering if it's essentially defunct because of how it's used now.
The term (or the term whataboutery, which it emerged from) was originally used by pro-British newspapers during the troubles to complain that when people would whine about IRA activities others would respond by pointing out that their direct opposition, the British, were committing atrocities.
It's always been a tool for Western hegemony to avoid criticism and accusations of hypocrisy.
Wow that was definitely an enlightening read on the etymology, so the word was fucked from the get go haha..
Sean O’Conaill (1976) - 'I would not suggest such a thing were it not for the Whatabouts. These are the people who answer every condemnation of the Provisional I.R.A. with an argument to prove the greater immorality of the “enemy”, and therefore the justice of the Provisionals’ cause: “What about Bloody Sunday, internment, torture, force feeding, army intimidation?”. '
Your willingness to change in the face of evidence is a breath of fresh air, thank you!
I see, my mistake, though from a descriptivist standpoint a meaning that a word long-since lost and one that it never had are virtually the same thing on a functional level
Nope. Because the argument always goes like this:
The actual problem starts at step 1, and it's started by westoids and their news media outlets who constantly a) attack free non-white countries (and Russia) b) stay silent about the (usually much worse) stuff the west is currently doing
For example, how many westoids have ever said anything about the EU overfishing Indian Ocean waters? Instead it's always China overfishing X, or making Y animal extinct, even though westoids consume 4x more resources per capita and 90% of the rhino and elephant populations were killed by whites since the 1800s. Fuck mayos and fuck anyone who even reasons within their moronic bullshit paradigm
It'd be tough to get everyone to sign on, but I'd be down for your definition. It sounds like it better matches the word itself. Feels like a term I could use as a synonym for brainstorming, or when I talk about transit expansions in my city
spoiler
Acting like china and russia did nothing wrong is ludacris. They have fucking gulags and education camps.
Denying this does nothing good for leftist movements. It weakness us as a whole because we can't have real conversation about the future of leftism.
I don't have to support every government that calls itself communist to be a leftist.
I know that liberals use the term incorrectly. That doesnt mean I cant call out blanatant red fascism when I see it.
Gulag just means prison in Russian. I don't know what they call prisons in China, but its not gulag. The prison system refered to as "the Gulag" in the west only existed for like 20 years or so. Less people were imprisioned in that system than at any time under Czarist russia, and far less than in the US now.
Just because it has a foreign name doesn't make it anything other than just a prison. I know you're an anarchist and for prison abolition, which is cool. But don't act like there are some kind of extra bad prisons in AES
Which is why we don't do it, as you were literally just shown when you asked for examples. Why are you continuing to spread knowing lies about us?
Stop using we. And us. You are not a representative of every communist. Lol
Ive argued many times on this topic. And I found many people calling themselves communists and blindly supporting CPC and The russia federation.
Stop acting like this isnt a thing.
I'm not claiming to be. I am, however, a member of the online community that you're insulting with claims that you know to be false.
Not completely hating all AES is the same as full uncritical support to them
Ok great. Honestly I'm getting tired & running out of steam arguing with people.
Truth is this. When one of the first big lemmy jumps from reddit came I heard that hexbear was cool a leftist space. so hopped on. I was honestly disgusted by the comments i saw. I saw so many people arguing blindly for CPC and DPRK. Saying they were better than the US and calling anybody critiquing the bold claims they were making libs. such as "Cpc is the future socialism." And "all the bad things people say about the CPC is american propaganda. "
Basically same thing that happend here when I defined tankie as authoritarian communist . In fact I saw this kind of thing on reddit too alot.
I dont give a fuck what you say or what other commenters post. I've seen this phenomena myself. I've been called a lib, So many times, simply for posting that I don't support Russia or the CPC in leftist spaces. I'm sick of it.
So what are we arguing about? Is hexbear not as bad as I thought it was? Ok cool. Im wrong.
I know there are people in "your" community that are actual tankies. I've argued with them myself. Are you trying to say these people don't exist? Cuz If you are, You're the one that is full shit.
There anything else you want to debate about?
Have you ever heard of supporting ideas and not concepts as a whole?
What I’m saying (and I assume others on Hexbear) when I mention CPC, the USSR or DPRK is taking ideas that are meant for empowering the working class, not the whole concept. The problem is that in the current world the CPC have much more empowerment of the working class than say many of the western countries, with the US being one of the worst offenders.
So if you call that blindly supporting the CPC, then I guess we can’t have a conversation about Marxist (or any other political thought) at all.
Like let’s say for example Mao and his views towards landlords
it’s not as much the hatred towards a landlord as a person (sure there is some animosity) but more of a hatred towards the idea of landlords.
Honestly if you really are a critical-thinker Hexbear is a place where that critical thought can flourish as you’ll get called out on bullshit as much as you’ll get great sources of information if you ask for them.
You can speak for us comrade @Zuzak@hexbear.net
When did my personal opinions on Russia or China come into any of this lol all I said was that "tankie" has no definitive meaning as used and that leftists using it is dumb and makes them sound like liberals. That the term to you equates to uncritical support of AES and Russia kind of proves the point in both respects.
How do you build a future for leftism if you're going to just call people tankies and tell them to fuck off back to hexbear and lemmygrad? They're about the last place I'd expect fascism to be celebrated based on my experience.