Why are you linking an actual propaganda thinktank as an example as of Uyghur Genocide?
You could link any source, but you link one that is staffed by people who's careers have been purely to lie about American's enemies and push American interests?? I hope you're a little sharper than that and you're just linking that because you hope other people will swallow anything.
"HEY GUYS THIS ORGANIZATION THAT IS PAID TO TELL ME THAT CHINA IS BAD, GET THIS, SAYS CHINA IS BAD!!"
Is there any way I can convince you China is sterilizing and reeducating massive numbers of people in interment camps against their will? It seems like you've just said everything is untrustworthy.
What government? It seems like the website you cited disregarded sources because they were from governments. Do you need Chinese government documents specifically?
The fact of the matter is that if a genocide was happening there would be evidence of it, but there isn’t. If anything on the order of what’s alleged in these sorts of threads were happening it wouldn’t even be possible to hide it. There would be tens of thousands of refugees flooding into neighboring countries at the very least. Instead, you can literally go walk around Xinjiang and see Uyghur people happily living their lives, or if you don’t want to do that you could watch any of hundreds of videos of other people doing that. Every Muslim majority country in the world sides with China on this issue, and only the US and it’s lackeys (countries famous for their deep concern about the rights of Muslims) are making hay about it.
There is evidence for it, you just claim that it is all a fabrication. Just one I found after seconds of searching. Have fun debunking over 60k accounts of mistreatment. https://shahit.biz/eng/
I just flipped through all 60,000 of them real quick and I gotta say, looks fake and made up. Since it only took you seconds to decide that this was bulletproof evidence of genocide, it only took me a few seconds to determine its fake.
I don’t immediately discard anything from western sources, but I do give them appropriate scrutiny, and I don’t take baseless allegations from them without the appropriate level of the verifiable evidence as gospel, especially when they have clear geopolitical motivations for their claims. They’ve lied far too many times to be extended the benefit of the doubt.
Literally no one is quoting the DPRK as an authority on things other than the question of "what is the DPRK's official line?" and mundane questions of policy and economic growth.
But Hexbear mostly deals with liberal rags, it just does so with some level of cynicism.
Great, so you admit that all you have are the sources previously provided and the inherent flaws they contain We're operating from a point of agreement, then! We do not have strong evidence for the claims being made.
my dude, just because you can scour the internet for 20-30 articles that support your psy-op, while out right dismissing anything even tangentially related with main stream press as biased, doesn't mean you have a point. It only means you've successfully created a bubble around you. Get outa here.
We don't outright dismiss them you dip. We engage with your sources and show why they're unreliable or non-factual. You're the one handwaving sources away and refusing to engage any further. Talk about a bubble around you.
I want you to think critically about this one. What people point to is an uptick in IUD insertions.
We have seen what sterilization compaigns in other countries look like, such as forced hysterectomies in the US and chemical castration in Israel. IUDs are birth control, they don't sterilize the patient. An appropriately-trained doctor can safely remove one in just a few minutes and I don't think you even need equipment to do so!
Literally even if we were imagining China was forcing women to get IUDs, which it isn't, that's not sterilizing them! Those women would not be sterilized!
But this is part of the endless layers of warping and misrepresentation that make things go from "uptick in IUD insertions"
to Zenz exaggerating the rate by a literal order of magnitude
to hack journalists doing circular citations of Associated Press, etc. making sinister insinuations
to people who don't follow this very closely saying "sterilizing"
Oh, I agree that in a vacuum that would be the more important thing, but I forgot to return to my first point: Given that this would be an extraordinarily poor way of doing forced sterilization and we know that from the many campaigns that we have decent documentation of, in the absence of solid evidence, concluding that this was "a forced sterilization campaign" does not seem reasonable. Like, in terms of everything from resilience to material waste, even just doing tube tyings (which effectively result in genuine sterilization in 1/4 of cases) would be much more effective. It's like saying they are trying to kill Uyghurs by promoting juggling in the hopes that they will bonk themselves in the head and stumble into traffic, it just isn't what such campaigns have ever looked like in practice.
Both the US state department and the CIA have had to acknowledge that there is no genocide going on in Xinjiang
That's very misleading. They say they have insufficient proof to say it is racially motivated. (Which is a prerequisite for genocide) But there is certainly great oppression happening there.
Forced sterilisation (birth rates are down 60% vs about 10% for the rest of China) and forceful reeducation? They don't care about the language as much as the shared cultural identity separate from China.
I'm trying to talk in good faith, but I don't have 10 hours to read about it. I've only researched about 1 or 2 hours. But I'm definitely not just taking your website at face value.
If you want to call the discussion off, I'm fine with that. This thread has given an adequate sample of hexbear ideology.
Birth rates were already much lower in the rest of China, did the Han do a genocide on themselves first lol or is declining birth rate the norm in a country with massively improved economic conditions and development, and has that begun to affect the more rural regions of China?
No, that isn’t a clarification. You’re not understanding that the birth rates in the rest of China were already much lower prior to the 10% decrease. The Uighur population has been growing even as the Han population has leveled out, because the Han already had lower birth rates for decades. The Uighur were exempted from the one child policy as well. So yeah, the rest decreased 10%, there was less room to decrease in the first place because birth rates were already very low!
I'm Chinese and literally grew up with Uyghurs downstairs in Hubei, they and the Hui family around the block were the only ones with more than 1 kid.
If you're referring to something Adrian Zenz said about 80% of new IUDs being sold in Xinjiang, he misread a decimal point 328,475 IUDs in Xinjiang out of 3,774,318. 8.7% of IUDs placed in China were in Xinjiang.
News quoted his 80% figure before he had to retract it, but it's already in the back of people's minds that China's forcibly sterilizing Uyghurs.
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I had some conversations here. They were saying that China isn't doing anything to the Uyghurs in Xinjiang. That seems like genocide denial to me.
Why are you linking an actual propaganda thinktank as an example as of Uyghur Genocide?
You could link any source, but you link one that is staffed by people who's careers have been purely to lie about American's enemies and push American interests?? I hope you're a little sharper than that and you're just linking that because you hope other people will swallow anything.
"HEY GUYS THIS ORGANIZATION THAT IS PAID TO TELL ME THAT CHINA IS BAD, GET THIS, SAYS CHINA IS BAD!!"
Come on bud.
You want the wiki?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide
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It isn't the government, and the sources cited within are very good. Would you only accept China or Russia's word for it? Or are western sources okay?
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Is there any way I can convince you China is sterilizing and reeducating massive numbers of people in interment camps against their will? It seems like you've just said everything is untrustworthy.
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What government? It seems like the website you cited disregarded sources because they were from governments. Do you need Chinese government documents specifically?
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No problem buddy, let just quickly break into that one chinese government archive where they got all their nasty stuff, should be easy ;^)
The fact of the matter is that if a genocide was happening there would be evidence of it, but there isn’t. If anything on the order of what’s alleged in these sorts of threads were happening it wouldn’t even be possible to hide it. There would be tens of thousands of refugees flooding into neighboring countries at the very least. Instead, you can literally go walk around Xinjiang and see Uyghur people happily living their lives, or if you don’t want to do that you could watch any of hundreds of videos of other people doing that. Every Muslim majority country in the world sides with China on this issue, and only the US and it’s lackeys (countries famous for their deep concern about the rights of Muslims) are making hay about it.
There is evidence for it, you just claim that it is all a fabrication. Just one I found after seconds of searching. Have fun debunking over 60k accounts of mistreatment. https://shahit.biz/eng/
I just flipped through all 60,000 of them real quick and I gotta say, looks fake and made up. Since it only took you seconds to decide that this was bulletproof evidence of genocide, it only took me a few seconds to determine its fake.
Except all the evidence your ignoring because it's from western sources
Western sources never make shit up. I heard that Iraqis are throwing babies out of incubators and hiding WMDs.
So you can throw out all western sources out of hand?
No, you can’t. I said they never make anything up, you’re actually morally obliged to believe anything they say.
But you were obviously being sarcastic, so I thought you are advocating the opposite.
I don’t immediately discard anything from western sources, but I do give them appropriate scrutiny, and I don’t take baseless allegations from them without the appropriate level of the verifiable evidence as gospel, especially when they have clear geopolitical motivations for their claims. They’ve lied far too many times to be extended the benefit of the doubt.
Fair enough. I hope you apply the same reasoning to other sources like Russian, North Korean, or Chinese sources?
I do!
Literally no one is quoting the DPRK as an authority on things other than the question of "what is the DPRK's official line?" and mundane questions of policy and economic growth.
But Hexbear mostly deals with liberal rags, it just does so with some level of cynicism.
You trust them on their economic growth figures? Those seem the most exaggerated documents I can think of.
Have you ever even looked at them?
Great, so you admit that all you have are the sources previously provided and the inherent flaws they contain
We're operating from a point of agreement, then! We do not have strong evidence for the claims being made.
my dude, just because you can scour the internet for 20-30 articles that support your psy-op, while out right dismissing anything even tangentially related with main stream press as biased, doesn't mean you have a point. It only means you've successfully created a bubble around you. Get outa here.
We don't outright dismiss them you dip. We engage with your sources and show why they're unreliable or non-factual. You're the one handwaving sources away and refusing to engage any further. Talk about a bubble around you.
I want you to think critically about this one. What people point to is an uptick in IUD insertions.
We have seen what sterilization compaigns in other countries look like, such as forced hysterectomies in the US and chemical castration in Israel. IUDs are birth control, they don't sterilize the patient. An appropriately-trained doctor can safely remove one in just a few minutes and I don't think you even need equipment to do so!
Literally even if we were imagining China was forcing women to get IUDs, which it isn't, that's not sterilizing them! Those women would not be sterilized!
But this is part of the endless layers of warping and misrepresentation that make things go from "uptick in IUD insertions"
to Zenz exaggerating the rate by a literal order of magnitude
to hack journalists doing circular citations of Associated Press, etc. making sinister insinuations
to people who don't follow this very closely saying "sterilizing"
So temporarily sterilisation? The important question would be whether it is forced.
Oh, I agree that in a vacuum that would be the more important thing, but I forgot to return to my first point: Given that this would be an extraordinarily poor way of doing forced sterilization and we know that from the many campaigns that we have decent documentation of, in the absence of solid evidence, concluding that this was "a forced sterilization campaign" does not seem reasonable. Like, in terms of everything from resilience to material waste, even just doing tube tyings (which effectively result in genuine sterilization in 1/4 of cases) would be much more effective. It's like saying they are trying to kill Uyghurs by promoting juggling in the hopes that they will bonk themselves in the head and stumble into traffic, it just isn't what such campaigns have ever looked like in practice.
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That's very misleading. They say they have insufficient proof to say it is racially motivated. (Which is a prerequisite for genocide) But there is certainly great oppression happening there.
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Forced sterilisation (birth rates are down 60% vs about 10% for the rest of China) and forceful reeducation? They don't care about the language as much as the shared cultural identity separate from China.
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I'm trying to talk in good faith, but I don't have 10 hours to read about it. I've only researched about 1 or 2 hours. But I'm definitely not just taking your website at face value.
If you want to call the discussion off, I'm fine with that. This thread has given an adequate sample of hexbear ideology.
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lol
Birth rates were already much lower in the rest of China, did the Han do a genocide on themselves first lol or is declining birth rate the norm in a country with massively improved economic conditions and development, and has that begun to affect the more rural regions of China?
That's why I clarified that there was a approx. 10% across the county vs a 60% decrease in that area.
No, that isn’t a clarification. You’re not understanding that the birth rates in the rest of China were already much lower prior to the 10% decrease. The Uighur population has been growing even as the Han population has leveled out, because the Han already had lower birth rates for decades. The Uighur were exempted from the one child policy as well. So yeah, the rest decreased 10%, there was less room to decrease in the first place because birth rates were already very low!
Why would the CPC, in the same breath, exempt the Uyghurs from the One Child Policy but also force sterilization?
Maybe? Then they can look like they're not limiting the population while doing it covertly.
I'm Chinese and literally grew up with Uyghurs downstairs in Hubei, they and the Hui family around the block were the only ones with more than 1 kid.
If you're referring to something Adrian Zenz said about 80% of new IUDs being sold in Xinjiang, he misread a decimal point 328,475 IUDs in Xinjiang out of 3,774,318. 8.7% of IUDs placed in China were in Xinjiang.
News quoted his 80% figure before he had to retract it, but it's already in the back of people's minds that China's forcibly sterilizing Uyghurs.