"Patriotic socialist" is someone who combines false consciousness nationalist populism with non intersectional and exclusionary class politics. Like "dictatorship of the proletariat" but then will define the proletariat very narrowly and chauvinistically. Its a common grift. Socialism wrapped in an american flag (and all that it entails).
I would say no. Patriotic Socialism is more like the movement that inspired the Nazis to add "socialism" to their name. The CCP has a nationalistic quality, like you have to be born in China to hold positions in the party, but for example there is proportional representation, they really make sure their minority populations are properly represented in the government and party. Patsocs try to use the contradictions that arise as a result of trying to reform a nation, and movements that push for progressive reforms for all, to make it into progressive reforms for some, if not completely derailing any progressive agenda. Sometimes patsocs will make appeals to the nationalist character of China or Cuba to argue for patriotic socialism, but I've never seen it argued for in good faith. People are either confused or lying, regardless of what anyone thinks about the CCP, they helped the Chinese people organize and defend themselves. No patsoc movement has ever come within 1000 miles of relevance, let alone victory (unless you count Nazis which wouldn't be a victory for progress!)
That's a really interesting way of looking at it! I think that the reason they get equated is that the material effect had been historically the same. Patsocs advocate for socialist policies, but ideologically restrict who does and doesn't get the benefit. Class reductionists advocate for socialist policies for all, but when the time comes to redistribute wealth, geez you know we really tried. So like the american socialist movements of the early 20th century, moved popular support for socialism all the way to a New deal. But Black workers were excluded from union membership or any of the benefits of the new deal, until the UAW started admitting black workers in Detroit decades later. So even though the messaging was completely different, the historical effect was the same. If workers have the power to demand truly transformative reforms, like new deal policies, then we have to actually push beyond that because the ruling class is never going to let it go down the way we know it has to. They will always fight back with extreme violence. Anything we win has to be defended and we can only defend it if everyone is on board to defend it, and not everyone will be on board if it leaves most people out. Maybe it wins temporary concessions for some, but we are communists, dammit! It's all or we fighting. Its not enough for the workers to be united. We have to be united in struggle, or we will never get there. At least that's what I think.
I mean that's the challenge, to turn our correct principles into political reality. The left needs people to take the lead, to think differently about old dusty problems, and communicate and discuss and educate. Nothing is easy or straightforward, but its good to have comrades and work for the people
All I recall is you being class reductionist, acting like intersectionality wasn't an important part of the revolutionary struggle, and calling minority rights individualism. And don't forget, you're not the only minority here, you don't speak for the rest of us.
EDIT: Yeah, upon rereading, I totally misinterpreted what you said. Just got a hair trigger from the current struggle session I guess. This one's on me, comrade. My bad.
Tbh, I think maybe we're speaking past each other, because these comments are something I can absolutely understand. Maybe I misunderstood your previous comments, because to me, they came off extremely class reductionist and dismissive of other marginalized people's struggles. I'm sorry, comrade.
No worries! I can definitely relate to not articulating myself well. It definitely takes some getting used to coming from the lib hell that is lol. And I came in immediately with snark myself, so it's not just on you.
I hope you stay around because I see your perspective, and I think if you wait and let hexbears have a struggle sesh then they will be able to see it too. Because as a cishet white guy, it was actually really important for me to get to the line that these other commenters keep repeating: that the place where workers feel the effects of of their economic exploitation is usually some social distinction like race/gender/ethnicity/expression. I also believe that capital and value are real and temporal, condensed laboring time of workers, and if I understand all of this correctly, a huge amount of the cultural and social capital, basically anything new, or persisting from slavery and indigenous dispossession and genocide, as well as everything in between (carcerial and police repression, extreme exploitation of demonized immigrants), is composed disproportionately of the value of the toil, extracted through extreme violence, of BIPoC around the world.
OTOH, I don't relate to black comrades as a racialized social relation. We are all volunteers so the people who are working together are there because they got their ass out to work together to get something done, or aid in people's struggles, or plan and even just bullshit in off time.
It seems like there is what leftist believe that certain positions on race "need to" or are "supposed to" be, because of the compound legacies of imperialism and colonialism and patriarchy, etc., especially with regards to whites like me, but those positions can end up flattening the lived experience of people into a collection of historical figures and facts, an object instead of a person. But what this disconnect is, what it is called for example, if it exists, idk if there's a name for it. So like so many problems, people disagree over things they don't have the language to understand yet.
Anyway, I appreciate your comments, comrade. Thanks.
We all have a ton of issues to work through, I hope you will be patient with us as I genuinely think HBs are acting in good faith! But we are all developing in different ways and at different rates. I'm sure you're able to recognize some ways in which you could become a better comrade, and part of that is by interacting principally with other principled politicized workers.
Unfortunately, in my organizing I have not yet encountered the movement that will stand a chance against imperialism. So until I find it or it finds me, I have to try to build it, out of the paved over wasteland of the american labor movement. It takes more patience and personal development than I ever anticipated. But at least I know I'm not completely alone. Our only hope is in each other, in solidarity. Hopelessness is to lose sight of that.
Anyway, thanks for your patience and strength. Sticking with it helps us to recognize and confront issues we encounter with other comrades. Sometimes it seems like we are the only ones who see a real problem with the way others approach problems that crop up as a result of left organizing and, while it could be a sign that we just aren't compatible with a group's beliefs, it could also be a sign that we are just a little ahead of our comrades in certain areas, and we can bring them up to speed and strengthen the movement in doing so.
In other words, quantitative inputs over time add up to great qualitative change. It can be slow process but we have to believe it to be successful, as every successful socialist movement has recognized the political effectiveness of dialectical change
deleted by creator
deleted by creator
There was a second comment that was removed as well further down the chain.
deleted by creator
deleted by creator
deleted by creator
"Patriotic socialist" is someone who combines false consciousness nationalist populism with non intersectional and exclusionary class politics. Like "dictatorship of the proletariat" but then will define the proletariat very narrowly and chauvinistically. Its a common grift. Socialism wrapped in an american flag (and all that it entails).
deleted by creator
I would say no. Patriotic Socialism is more like the movement that inspired the Nazis to add "socialism" to their name. The CCP has a nationalistic quality, like you have to be born in China to hold positions in the party, but for example there is proportional representation, they really make sure their minority populations are properly represented in the government and party. Patsocs try to use the contradictions that arise as a result of trying to reform a nation, and movements that push for progressive reforms for all, to make it into progressive reforms for some, if not completely derailing any progressive agenda. Sometimes patsocs will make appeals to the nationalist character of China or Cuba to argue for patriotic socialism, but I've never seen it argued for in good faith. People are either confused or lying, regardless of what anyone thinks about the CCP, they helped the Chinese people organize and defend themselves. No patsoc movement has ever come within 1000 miles of relevance, let alone victory (unless you count Nazis which wouldn't be a victory for progress!)
deleted by creator
That's a really interesting way of looking at it! I think that the reason they get equated is that the material effect had been historically the same. Patsocs advocate for socialist policies, but ideologically restrict who does and doesn't get the benefit. Class reductionists advocate for socialist policies for all, but when the time comes to redistribute wealth, geez you know we really tried. So like the american socialist movements of the early 20th century, moved popular support for socialism all the way to a New deal. But Black workers were excluded from union membership or any of the benefits of the new deal, until the UAW started admitting black workers in Detroit decades later. So even though the messaging was completely different, the historical effect was the same. If workers have the power to demand truly transformative reforms, like new deal policies, then we have to actually push beyond that because the ruling class is never going to let it go down the way we know it has to. They will always fight back with extreme violence. Anything we win has to be defended and we can only defend it if everyone is on board to defend it, and not everyone will be on board if it leaves most people out. Maybe it wins temporary concessions for some, but we are communists, dammit! It's all or we fighting. Its not enough for the workers to be united. We have to be united in struggle, or we will never get there. At least that's what I think.
deleted by creator
I mean that's the challenge, to turn our correct principles into political reality. The left needs people to take the lead, to think differently about old dusty problems, and communicate and discuss and educate. Nothing is easy or straightforward, but its good to have comrades and work for the people
deleted by creator
This you?EDIT: My bad.
deleted by creator
All I recall is you being class reductionist, acting like intersectionality wasn't an important part of the revolutionary struggle, and calling minority rights individualism. And don't forget, you're not the only minority here, you don't speak for the rest of us.EDIT: Yeah, upon rereading, I totally misinterpreted what you said. Just got a hair trigger from the current struggle session I guess. This one's on me, comrade. My bad.
deleted by creator
Tbh, I think maybe we're speaking past each other, because these comments are something I can absolutely understand. Maybe I misunderstood your previous comments, because to me, they came off extremely class reductionist and dismissive of other marginalized people's struggles. I'm sorry, comrade.
deleted by creator
No worries! I can definitely relate to not articulating myself well. It definitely takes some getting used to coming from the lib hell that is
lol. And I came in immediately with snark myself, so it's not just on you.
I hope you stay around because I see your perspective, and I think if you wait and let hexbears have a struggle sesh then they will be able to see it too. Because as a cishet white guy, it was actually really important for me to get to the line that these other commenters keep repeating: that the place where workers feel the effects of of their economic exploitation is usually some social distinction like race/gender/ethnicity/expression. I also believe that capital and value are real and temporal, condensed laboring time of workers, and if I understand all of this correctly, a huge amount of the cultural and social capital, basically anything new, or persisting from slavery and indigenous dispossession and genocide, as well as everything in between (carcerial and police repression, extreme exploitation of demonized immigrants), is composed disproportionately of the value of the toil, extracted through extreme violence, of BIPoC around the world.
OTOH, I don't relate to black comrades as a racialized social relation. We are all volunteers so the people who are working together are there because they got their ass out to work together to get something done, or aid in people's struggles, or plan and even just bullshit in off time.
It seems like there is what leftist believe that certain positions on race "need to" or are "supposed to" be, because of the compound legacies of imperialism and colonialism and patriarchy, etc., especially with regards to whites like me, but those positions can end up flattening the lived experience of people into a collection of historical figures and facts, an object instead of a person. But what this disconnect is, what it is called for example, if it exists, idk if there's a name for it. So like so many problems, people disagree over things they don't have the language to understand yet.
Anyway, I appreciate your comments, comrade. Thanks.
deleted by creator
We all have a ton of issues to work through, I hope you will be patient with us as I genuinely think HBs are acting in good faith! But we are all developing in different ways and at different rates. I'm sure you're able to recognize some ways in which you could become a better comrade, and part of that is by interacting principally with other principled politicized workers.
Unfortunately, in my organizing I have not yet encountered the movement that will stand a chance against imperialism. So until I find it or it finds me, I have to try to build it, out of the paved over wasteland of the american labor movement. It takes more patience and personal development than I ever anticipated. But at least I know I'm not completely alone. Our only hope is in each other, in solidarity. Hopelessness is to lose sight of that.
Anyway, thanks for your patience and strength. Sticking with it helps us to recognize and confront issues we encounter with other comrades. Sometimes it seems like we are the only ones who see a real problem with the way others approach problems that crop up as a result of left organizing and, while it could be a sign that we just aren't compatible with a group's beliefs, it could also be a sign that we are just a little ahead of our comrades in certain areas, and we can bring them up to speed and strengthen the movement in doing so.
In other words, quantitative inputs over time add up to great qualitative change. It can be slow process but we have to believe it to be successful, as every successful socialist movement has recognized the political effectiveness of dialectical change
deleted by creator