"We, the enlightened and human rights respecting West, did an about face on LGBT people having rights about 10 years ago after many centuries of violent persecution and suppression.
Now you, the country who's main ethnic group derives it's demonym from a dynast of bisexual emperors, and which has never had large scale and systematic persecution or suppression of gay people, must depict gay people in media exactly as we do.
Can gay people exist in America without their sexual identities being the subject of endless culture war bullshit?
I'm all for China legalizing gay marriage and full protections for LGBT people. That process requires Chinese society to have its own conversation, which is what's happening right now. Copy pasting American culture war bullshit verbatim isn't going to do gay people any good, and a gay character in a kids movie certainly isn't going to do jack shit.
the newer generations in china have been leading the way in terms of a public opinion shift towards acceptance of LGBTQ people. on social media and in city centers you can find a lot of LGBTQ youth freely expressing themselves from what i've seen.
They're having the conversation right now. Like there was a recent incident where LGBTQ stuff was banned off Weibo (Chinese social media) and there was a public outcry that reversed the decision. It's up to China to decide how they'll progress and I'm optimistic about it.
China's censorship laws are mostly designed for protectionist reasons, like they don't want their domestic film industry overrun by Disney or Sony. They'd rather have an internal market that's not bound to international businesses. That said, their censorship board is, for better or worse, operated by a bunch of stick in the mud boomers. Hopefully it'll get better with increasing awareness among younger people and changing trends. That said, the idea that China needs its government overthrown because it censors movies or that the state isn't as progressive as it could be? That's absurd and not helping anything.
I should also mention that homosexuality was mostly seen as normal or ignored throughout Chinese history up until the 19th century. It was a theme at the time that Britain or some other western power would start involving themselves within an Asian country and rewrite local laws, including restrictions on homosexuality.
Most of the useful conversation to be had is not from the west demanding they just adopt western culture. I don't support censoring movies on homophobic grounds, but I think gay media produced and shown domestically (which absolutely does exist) is much more productive and important.
Because giving the impression that LGBT issues are an imposition on Chinese society by the West in general and America specifically is going to distort the issue at best and at worst give the conservatives ammo to say that LGBT is an American plot to blah blah blah. Especially in the context of a Disney movie, aimed at kids, which adds in a "they're coming for our children" factor.
It would do incalculable damage to the advancement of LGBT rights in China for such rights to be tied to America or the West, so on balance the censors probably did the LGBT community a solid here.
Plus, that's assuming that this is the censors in China and not Disney self censoring because Disney thinks the Chinese censors care.
Well for one, China and much of the global south have been struggling against the political, economic, and cultural hegemony of the West for centuries now and there's a pretty visceral aversion to doing whatever the west is perceived to be telling us to do. Especially so on a cultural and societal level where Westerners have zero idea of who we are and how we do things but just constantly tell us how we should think and behave.
In this specific context, there well recognized scholars who posit that homophobia was spread in China by Westerners during the late Qing and Republican era. In addition to being rightfully wary of Western social and cultural meddling, there is also a strong rejection of the hypocrisy of the West causing this problem in the first place and now judging us for not immediately following their model in solving it.
For another, Western media just recently demonstrated how willing it is to politicize Disney movies by accusing China and Occupied Korea of being racist because of poor ticket sales of The Little Mermaid. If Westoid media makes a big song and dance about how a billion and a half Chinese people are homophobes because we didn't turn up to see a Disney movie, that's going to taint the whole movement with an association to hysterical Western political media.
Nope! And thats bad. But marriage equality is not the only measure of queer rights. Queer people in China are largely left alone and not hate crimed and speaking as a queer I'd rather get to be alive than get married.
China absolutely needs to work on its legal rights for queer people. I'm not saying otherwise. But you are still looking at the issue through a very western lense, and a hypocritical one considering how recently queer rights have even been begun to be accepted in the west. And how fast we are moving backwards on them in America especially. And how bad issues like homeless queer youth still are.
Why is it hypocritical? I've supported the LGBT movement for literally as long as I can remember. It's somehow my fault that other people haven't realized that gay people are still people?
Have you ever criticized someone for looking at the issue through a very eastern lense or is that reserved for people you deem as western-enough?
I'm not a Christian, but one of the things I've always felt Jesus was really on point on was when he said "take the beam out of your own eye before taking the speck of dust from your neighbors".
I think this can be applied to geopolitics very well, even if you think the other country has the beam and you have the speck of dust, its still advisable to focus on your own countries problems. Its hypocritical not on a personal level, but on a national level. To use a non Christian phrase, its throwing stones in a glass house. Idk what specific country you're from, but unless its China you can't do much about China's issues with queer rights, so why focus on them? Focus on wherever you're from.
Like literally the only thing a Westerner can "do about" Chinese queer rights issues is encourage war/regime change, which you should know does not have a good record of working out for the effected country. And thats the problem we communists have when people start talking about China's problem. We know our countries want regime change in China, so we see this shit as supporting of that. Its basically a threat.
Have you ever criticized someone for looking at the issue through a very eastern lense or is that reserved for people you deem as western-enough?
No, I haven't, because I'm a westerner lol. Like I said, I focus my criticisms at home.
I want good for all people on this Earth. Like, I wouldn't ignore verbal abuse just because there's physical assault still happening, y'know? I'm not a politician or even a particularly smart guy. I know my original post came off bad, sorry.
why is inclusion in an often patriarchal/misogynistic and conservative institution as marriage the end-all-be-all of queer rights? this is such an annoying talking point from liberals. i have heard american conservatives going on national stages and calling for the complete genocide of trans people, but i have not heard of anything like that from chinese politicians.
china has a long road ahead in terms of queer rights, but compared to queer rights (and "rights" like the right to get married, right to die in an imperialist war, etc) backsliding in the west, there's a pretty big difference.
why is inclusion in an often patriarchal/misogynistic and conservative institution as marriage the end-all-be-all of queer rights?
Kind of reminds me of the space race and how the USSR had all these amazing achievements but America decided that the winner was the first one to land people on the moon.
I ain't no fucking lib. It's a simple standard of acceptance in society (i.e. gay people get to participate in the same governmental institutions as everyone else).
I'm a queer anarchist and I've posted plenty on hexbear, is it possible you only notice the takes that cause you the most instinctive reaction? There is a more diverse array of views there than people on other instances realize I think. And I've seen more constructive discussion there than most places on the internet, including lemmy.world and other instances.
That's great, although I'm not sure how well someone who fundamentally opposes statehood can find much meaningful discourse there.
Look below, and you'll see tankies accusing me of transphobia and all manner of evil simply because I choose to be married, even though I by no means exclude or invalidate anyone else's relationship.
It fucking sucks when people can defend a state for excluding gay people (or any people) from rights that others enjoy. It's in itself LGBTphobic. Not me -- them
The only 'tankies accusing' anything I saw in the convo were people mentioning that "marriage is a patriarchal institution", which I don't see how that is calling you a transphobe even if you disagree. Someone did mention trans people don't care about marriage because they are being murdered, maybe that is what you are referring to, it really didn't come off to me like anyone was calling you a transphobe but maybe I'm wrong. I didn't see anyone say that you couldn't be married, or that people can't enjoy having a marriage, to me that is separate from critique of marriage as a patriarchal institution.
But yeah, I don't know why anyone would defend a state for anything. That's part of why I do feel the need to engage with more 'state-friendly' socialists, to figure out what about it seems necessary to them, or if there is some greater flaw with my anti-state belief.
Damn you got really mad at someone for saying that they are interested in why pro-state socialists feel that way and want to learn. Why does someone wanting to learn make you so angry? Maybe because you're closed minded and refuse to listen and learn in the slightest?
Someone with as much obvious privilege as you, who wields it in conversations freely, calling others priviledged for the mere act of engaging with people who think differently than them is quiet rich.
ETA: I think you need to maybe think about introspecting instead of lashing out when someone accuses you of being a priviledged white gay westerner "pulling up the ladder". Because that is a quiet common phenomenon (see men like Pete Buttigieg for example). White gays who aren't poor saying "ok, we won marriage equality, dont care about the rest of it" is very frequent and you ARE acting like that in this thread.
The critique of marriage as a patriarchal institution was invented by anarchists lmao. I'm just a "tankie" but I'm well read on anarchist lit, why aren't you as an anarchist?
I'm not aware of any queer anarchist critiques that don't acknowledge that marriage, especially as recognized by the state, is a patriarchal institution, they just go on to elaborate how that can be subverted within queer culture. Do you have any links or recommendations for writings that argue that marriage recognized by the state isn't a patriarchal institution at all?
Edit: I believe trans people should have equity too, and the freedom to enter into whatever type of relationship that they so choose, whatever that may look like. Ironically, it's you who are trying to invalidate other people's relationships. I'm doing nothing of the kind.
If that's the kind of logic that convinces you of things, you should check out all of the other people saying the same thing as me.
Basically your one job as a leftist when it comes to capitalist propaganda is to not unquestioningly repeat it and guess what you're doing, lib. And it's in the realm of orientalism to boot. Not exactly distinguishing yourself.
why is inclusion in an often patriarchal/misogynistic and conservative institution as marriage the end-all-be-all of queer rights?
Legal protections mostly. If you get married, you have a right to see your spouse in the hospital. Otherwise, they're just another person even if you've been living together for 50 years. You also have a right to inheritance, the right to receive pensions and 401k, etc etc. An unmarried partner is essentially left with nothing unless explicitly stated in a will and even then they don't have all the legal protections.
Imagine living with someone for 20 years and they get into a car wreck, you can't see them before they die because you're not married. You get kicked out of your home because legally you're just a roommate and have no right to stay in that house. Then, all the money your partner invested goes to their shithead parents who kicked them out as a child. None of that would happen if you were married.
Marriage is an outdated contract but the functions it provides are still important to society.
Edit: Obviously I support China but marriage isn't just a "proof of love" or some other sentimental thing.
China is not perfect on the matter of right-to-housing, but it is very good. Everyone has a right to have some kind of housing unit, though they don't necessarily (and in fact, I think usually don't) "own" it and family homes are counted if the kid isn't formally disowned. A very large number of the homeless population in China are "itinerant homeless," those who do have a family home but have moved elsewhere and aren't paying rent for an apartment (usually due to poverty, and therefore may live on the street) in order to try to get a job in the city with which to support themselves and possibly the rest of their family, who are usually back home in some rural area. This is very different from what homelessness typically looks like in the US, though it happens here too.
If a child is not formally disowned but is nonetheless forced out by their family, then it's effectively a matter of child abuse to be handled by the appropriate government organization once it is discovered/reported, and either the family recants or they formally disown the child. If they are formally disowned, they are entitled to shelter.
Though not the same system by any means, I think the DPRK's law on this subject is similar, though it's much easier for poor families (and kids therein) to fall through the cracks, meaning that you are more likely* to find a homeless queer kid there as a consequence.
if you ignore the sinophobia, its a common policy to give residence to those apply for it while waiting for work. One can apply multiple times, or directly reach out to a government official for help to find work.
"We, the enlightened and human rights respecting West, did an about face on LGBT people having rights about 10 years ago after many centuries of violent persecution and suppression.
Now you, the country who's main ethnic group derives it's demonym from a dynast of bisexual emperors, and which has never had large scale and systematic persecution or suppression of gay people, must depict gay people in media exactly as we do.
If you do not, we will call you barbarians."
Can gay people get married in China?
Can gay people exist in America without their sexual identities being the subject of endless culture war bullshit?
I'm all for China legalizing gay marriage and full protections for LGBT people. That process requires Chinese society to have its own conversation, which is what's happening right now. Copy pasting American culture war bullshit verbatim isn't going to do gay people any good, and a gay character in a kids movie certainly isn't going to do jack shit.
the newer generations in china have been leading the way in terms of a public opinion shift towards acceptance of LGBTQ people. on social media and in city centers you can find a lot of LGBTQ youth freely expressing themselves from what i've seen.
There are even laws against hate speech towards LGBT people in the Chinese national media. That will literally never happen in America
Then why change the movies? Why not just not release them if Chinese society isn't ready to have that conversation yet?
They're having the conversation right now. Like there was a recent incident where LGBTQ stuff was banned off Weibo (Chinese social media) and there was a public outcry that reversed the decision. It's up to China to decide how they'll progress and I'm optimistic about it.
China's censorship laws are mostly designed for protectionist reasons, like they don't want their domestic film industry overrun by Disney or Sony. They'd rather have an internal market that's not bound to international businesses. That said, their censorship board is, for better or worse, operated by a bunch of stick in the mud boomers. Hopefully it'll get better with increasing awareness among younger people and changing trends. That said, the idea that China needs its government overthrown because it censors movies or that the state isn't as progressive as it could be? That's absurd and not helping anything.
I should also mention that homosexuality was mostly seen as normal or ignored throughout Chinese history up until the 19th century. It was a theme at the time that Britain or some other western power would start involving themselves within an Asian country and rewrite local laws, including restrictions on homosexuality.
I've never said they need to be overthrown? That's literally not what I'm saying at all.
Ok sorry I was responding to people in my head
Well, I'd say sorry on his behalf, considering you seem to ask the question in good faith...
Most of the useful conversation to be had is not from the west demanding they just adopt western culture. I don't support censoring movies on homophobic grounds, but I think gay media produced and shown domestically (which absolutely does exist) is much more productive and important.
Because giving the impression that LGBT issues are an imposition on Chinese society by the West in general and America specifically is going to distort the issue at best and at worst give the conservatives ammo to say that LGBT is an American plot to blah blah blah. Especially in the context of a Disney movie, aimed at kids, which adds in a "they're coming for our children" factor.
It would do incalculable damage to the advancement of LGBT rights in China for such rights to be tied to America or the West, so on balance the censors probably did the LGBT community a solid here.
Plus, that's assuming that this is the censors in China and not Disney self censoring because Disney thinks the Chinese censors care.
I don't see how a story about a gay character could possibly do such damage to an entire movement regardless of its country of origin.
I'm really not trying to be obtuse I actually don't understand.
Well for one, China and much of the global south have been struggling against the political, economic, and cultural hegemony of the West for centuries now and there's a pretty visceral aversion to doing whatever the west is perceived to be telling us to do. Especially so on a cultural and societal level where Westerners have zero idea of who we are and how we do things but just constantly tell us how we should think and behave.
In this specific context, there well recognized scholars who posit that homophobia was spread in China by Westerners during the late Qing and Republican era. In addition to being rightfully wary of Western social and cultural meddling, there is also a strong rejection of the hypocrisy of the West causing this problem in the first place and now judging us for not immediately following their model in solving it.
For another, Western media just recently demonstrated how willing it is to politicize Disney movies by accusing China and Occupied Korea of being racist because of poor ticket sales of The Little Mermaid. If Westoid media makes a big song and dance about how a billion and a half Chinese people are homophobes because we didn't turn up to see a Disney movie, that's going to taint the whole movement with an association to hysterical Western political media.
Nope! And thats bad. But marriage equality is not the only measure of queer rights. Queer people in China are largely left alone and not hate crimed and speaking as a queer I'd rather get to be alive than get married.
China absolutely needs to work on its legal rights for queer people. I'm not saying otherwise. But you are still looking at the issue through a very western lense, and a hypocritical one considering how recently queer rights have even been begun to be accepted in the west. And how fast we are moving backwards on them in America especially. And how bad issues like homeless queer youth still are.
Why is it hypocritical? I've supported the LGBT movement for literally as long as I can remember. It's somehow my fault that other people haven't realized that gay people are still people?
Have you ever criticized someone for looking at the issue through a very eastern lense or is that reserved for people you deem as western-enough?
I'm not a Christian, but one of the things I've always felt Jesus was really on point on was when he said "take the beam out of your own eye before taking the speck of dust from your neighbors".
I think this can be applied to geopolitics very well, even if you think the other country has the beam and you have the speck of dust, its still advisable to focus on your own countries problems. Its hypocritical not on a personal level, but on a national level. To use a non Christian phrase, its throwing stones in a glass house. Idk what specific country you're from, but unless its China you can't do much about China's issues with queer rights, so why focus on them? Focus on wherever you're from.
Like literally the only thing a Westerner can "do about" Chinese queer rights issues is encourage war/regime change, which you should know does not have a good record of working out for the effected country. And thats the problem we communists have when people start talking about China's problem. We know our countries want regime change in China, so we see this shit as supporting of that. Its basically a threat.
No, I haven't, because I'm a westerner lol. Like I said, I focus my criticisms at home.
I want good for all people on this Earth. Like, I wouldn't ignore verbal abuse just because there's physical assault still happening, y'know? I'm not a politician or even a particularly smart guy. I know my original post came off bad, sorry.
Well, what happens when the guy doing physical assault wants you on his side vs the verbal abuse guy? Thats the US running propaganda on China.
why is inclusion in an often patriarchal/misogynistic and conservative institution as marriage the end-all-be-all of queer rights? this is such an annoying talking point from liberals. i have heard american conservatives going on national stages and calling for the complete genocide of trans people, but i have not heard of anything like that from chinese politicians.
china has a long road ahead in terms of queer rights, but compared to queer rights (and "rights" like the right to get married, right to die in an imperialist war, etc) backsliding in the west, there's a pretty big difference.
Kind of reminds me of the space race and how the USSR had all these amazing achievements but America decided that the winner was the first one to land people on the moon.
I ain't no fucking lib. It's a simple standard of acceptance in society (i.e. gay people get to participate in the same governmental institutions as everyone else).
Yeah man you really got me good I actually pressed x to lie and you really called me out you did such a a good job.
As a transbian, fuck no it isnt, that is liberal bullshit. Marriage is a patriarchal institution.
Okay
No sense arguing with tankies. Every take I've seen from hexbear itt is absolute brainrot, and I can't wait until we can block entire instances.
Signed, A gay, married anarchist
I'm a queer anarchist and I've posted plenty on hexbear, is it possible you only notice the takes that cause you the most instinctive reaction? There is a more diverse array of views there than people on other instances realize I think. And I've seen more constructive discussion there than most places on the internet, including lemmy.world and other instances.
That's great, although I'm not sure how well someone who fundamentally opposes statehood can find much meaningful discourse there.
Look below, and you'll see tankies accusing me of transphobia and all manner of evil simply because I choose to be married, even though I by no means exclude or invalidate anyone else's relationship.
It fucking sucks when people can defend a state for excluding gay people (or any people) from rights that others enjoy. It's in itself LGBTphobic. Not me -- them
The only 'tankies accusing' anything I saw in the convo were people mentioning that "marriage is a patriarchal institution", which I don't see how that is calling you a transphobe even if you disagree. Someone did mention trans people don't care about marriage because they are being murdered, maybe that is what you are referring to, it really didn't come off to me like anyone was calling you a transphobe but maybe I'm wrong. I didn't see anyone say that you couldn't be married, or that people can't enjoy having a marriage, to me that is separate from critique of marriage as a patriarchal institution. But yeah, I don't know why anyone would defend a state for anything. That's part of why I do feel the need to engage with more 'state-friendly' socialists, to figure out what about it seems necessary to them, or if there is some greater flaw with my anti-state belief.
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Like the United States?
As opposed to those non-authoritarian regimes that you, as a self proclaimed anarchist, definitely believe in.
Damn you got really mad at someone for saying that they are interested in why pro-state socialists feel that way and want to learn. Why does someone wanting to learn make you so angry? Maybe because you're closed minded and refuse to listen and learn in the slightest?
Someone with as much obvious privilege as you, who wields it in conversations freely, calling others priviledged for the mere act of engaging with people who think differently than them is quiet rich.
ETA: I think you need to maybe think about introspecting instead of lashing out when someone accuses you of being a priviledged white gay westerner "pulling up the ladder". Because that is a quiet common phenomenon (see men like Pete Buttigieg for example). White gays who aren't poor saying "ok, we won marriage equality, dont care about the rest of it" is very frequent and you ARE acting like that in this thread.
😏
god damn it lol
Hexbear has the largest number of trans people than any other instance lmao
Yet another gay trying to split away from the T rather than trying to understand why so many trans people hold views like this
As an anarchist you should agree with "marriage is a patriarchal institution" since that take was pretty much invented by anarchists.
Yeah lmao
My marriage isn't
Breaking news: White gay man doesn't recognize his privilege within the broader queer community, and now the weather
The critique of marriage as a patriarchal institution was invented by anarchists lmao. I'm just a "tankie" but I'm well read on anarchist lit, why aren't you as an anarchist?
Because all anarchists famously agree on everything
Fucking galaxy brain
I'm not aware of any queer anarchist critiques that don't acknowledge that marriage, especially as recognized by the state, is a patriarchal institution, they just go on to elaborate how that can be subverted within queer culture. Do you have any links or recommendations for writings that argue that marriage recognized by the state isn't a patriarchal institution at all?
dw they'll get back to you after they write their own.
it's going to be Harry Potter but Harry is gay, nothing else changes
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What the fuck are you talking about, Jesse?
Edit: I believe trans people should have equity too, and the freedom to enter into whatever type of relationship that they so choose, whatever that may look like. Ironically, it's you who are trying to invalidate other people's relationships. I'm doing nothing of the kind.
No one is trying to do this. Stop putting words into people's mouths.
"There's no point arguing with you; you'll disagree with me!"
I don't come here to argue, nor do I come here to convince
Typical tankie seeing everything as a power struggle
Anarchists are also rightfully obsessed with criticizing hierarchy and power what are you talking about? What do you think being an anarchist means?
It means being in a vaush cult apparently
One look at your activity here shows that that's a lie.
everything literally is a power struggle, the power of the working class and the power of the capitalist class.
did you skip theory or something?
trans marxist here, Thanks for nothing ya lib
No it isn't lmao. I care more about housing rates among LGBT people, China and Cuba are high on that list.
Signed: yet another hexbear trans user. Weird how so many trans people on lemmy are hard left 🤔
Okay
I dunno you say a lot of lib things
Must be true if you're saying it
If that's the kind of logic that convinces you of things, you should check out all of the other people saying the same thing as me.
Basically your one job as a leftist when it comes to capitalist propaganda is to not unquestioningly repeat it and guess what you're doing, lib. And it's in the realm of orientalism to boot. Not exactly distinguishing yourself.
Okay boss you got it no problems here
2nd trans here, having a house and job would help way more than just some legal lip service that'll be taken away in 20 years
Okay
okay
Legal protections mostly. If you get married, you have a right to see your spouse in the hospital. Otherwise, they're just another person even if you've been living together for 50 years. You also have a right to inheritance, the right to receive pensions and 401k, etc etc. An unmarried partner is essentially left with nothing unless explicitly stated in a will and even then they don't have all the legal protections.
Imagine living with someone for 20 years and they get into a car wreck, you can't see them before they die because you're not married. You get kicked out of your home because legally you're just a roommate and have no right to stay in that house. Then, all the money your partner invested goes to their shithead parents who kicked them out as a child. None of that would happen if you were married.
Marriage is an outdated contract but the functions it provides are still important to society.
Edit: Obviously I support China but marriage isn't just a "proof of love" or some other sentimental thing.
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Can a gay kid who is kicked out of their home find housing in the US?
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Not being threatened with homelessmess would have helped me infinitely more than the right to be married.
Wouldn't that also apply to a gay kid in china? I somehow doubt they just give away free housing to people.
China is not perfect on the matter of right-to-housing, but it is very good. Everyone has a right to have some kind of housing unit, though they don't necessarily (and in fact, I think usually don't) "own" it and family homes are counted if the kid isn't formally disowned. A very large number of the homeless population in China are "itinerant homeless," those who do have a family home but have moved elsewhere and aren't paying rent for an apartment (usually due to poverty, and therefore may live on the street) in order to try to get a job in the city with which to support themselves and possibly the rest of their family, who are usually back home in some rural area. This is very different from what homelessness typically looks like in the US, though it happens here too.
If a child is not formally disowned but is nonetheless forced out by their family, then it's effectively a matter of child abuse to be handled by the appropriate government organization once it is discovered/reported, and either the family recants or they formally disown the child. If they are formally disowned, they are entitled to shelter.
Though not the same system by any means, I think the DPRK's law on this subject is similar, though it's much easier for poor families (and kids therein) to fall through the cracks, meaning that you are more likely* to find a homeless queer kid there as a consequence.
*on a per-capita level
actually that is a literal program they have
https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/3219935/more-chinese-cities-offer-free-accommodations-lure-jobseekers-ease-their-financial-burden
if you ignore the sinophobia, its a common policy to give residence to those apply for it while waiting for work. One can apply multiple times, or directly reach out to a government official for help to find work.
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